Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-09-2008, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,446 posts, read 16,150,337 times
Reputation: 6958

Advertisements

This news item about preventable deaths has not appeared in the New York Times yet. I don't know if it has been reported on TV.
Such news puts another dent into the bubble and may only outrage the public, not for the preventable deaths, but because many Americans regard it as a planned smear of their country, even more so, that France rates above the US.
America's healthcare system is broken, but it's profitable. America is not incopetent, nor are financial resources lacking, but it's a matter of pride. For America to consider the how the more efficient healthcare systems of smaller countries function would be considered as humiliating and embarrassing. Meanwhile, this pride costs 100,000 American lives per year.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-09-2008, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Holly Springs, NC USA
3,457 posts, read 4,642,087 times
Reputation: 1907
The problem still remains the cost of healthcare, not with the quality of healthcare. Instead of providing socialized medicine which does not address the rising costs of healthcare, we should be finding ways to get the costs down. The main reason why healthcare is so high is the government's involvement. Since Medicare and Medicaid got involved, the cost of healthcare has risen dramtically. I wonder what would happen to costs and quality with socialized medicine. Scary to think!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Ah, I see. Somewhere between 600 and 700 people died from heat-related causes in the Chicago heatwave of July 1995. Air conditioning is common in Chicago. Half of Chicago doctors are not scheduled for holiday in July. The heat wave in Chicago lasted five days. The heatwave in France lasted nine days. The population of France is about 22.5 times that of Chicago. Had the Chicago heatwave gone on as long as the French heatwave did and affected as large a population, more that 25,000 people would have died. What was that number for France again? Did I see 14,802 back there somewhere?
Play with your numbers all you wish; 600 is still less than 14,000.

Had that many seniors died in America in nine days, even the Teflon Mr. Clinton might have been accused of callousness, yet no one in this thread made one peep about the French tragedy until I brought it up.

This thread -- and the OP -- is just another opportunity for people to take potshots at the US, and throw mud at anyone who dares to dispute their criticisms (hence the references to my lack of "compassion", for what? having the gall to bring up the obvious irony of praising France for its public-health successes while ignoring the summer of 2003?)...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
This news item about preventable deaths has not appeared in the New York Times yet. I don't know if it has been reported on TV.
Such news puts another dent into the bubble and may only outrage the public, not for the preventable deaths, but because many Americans regard it as a planned smear of their country, even more so, that France rates above the US.
America's healthcare system is broken, but it's profitable. America is not incopetent, nor are financial resources lacking, but it's a matter of pride. For America to consider the how the more efficient healthcare systems of smaller countries function would be considered as humiliating and embarrassing. Meanwhile, this pride costs 100,000 American lives per year.
America's healthcare system is not "broken." India's -- where the corpses are swept up each morning off the streets of major cities in droves -- is broken. Noting that some smaller, homogenous, often more sparsely populated countries have more efficient healthcare systems than the US should come as a shock -- or an embarrassment -- to no one.

The range of factors involved -- diet, immigration, population density, range of climates, distances, etc. -- are much more complex than a single, relatively limited, study of public health can authoritatively encompass.

I remain unconvinced that this entire thread is little more than another alarmist exercise in America-bashing. The tone of collective outrage which has greeted my dissent, and my insistence that the French heat deaths of 2003 substantially invalidate the report's conclusions, bears this out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 09:30 AM
 
2,643 posts, read 2,434,347 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
America's healthcare system is not "broken." India's -- where the corpses are swept up each morning off the streets of major cities in droves -- is broken. Noting that some smaller, homogenous, often more sparsely populated countries have more efficient healthcare systems than the US should come as a shock -- or an embarrassment -- to no one.

The range of factors involved -- diet, immigration, population density, range of climates, distances, etc. -- are much more complex than a single, relatively limited, study of public health can authoritatively encompass.

I remain unconvinced that this entire thread is little more than another alarmist exercise in America-bashing. The tone of collective outrage which has greeted my dissent, and my insistence that the French heat deaths of 2003 substantially invalidate the report's conclusions, bears this out.
that post didnt suprise me, as soon as we talk about americas problems it becomes an america bashing thread, typical conservative BS, the 13,000 people that died in the heat wave pales in comparison to the 20,000 people that died in the US because they had NO health insurance and avoided seeing the doctor and dont forget the number of people that died because their insurance companies let them die to save a buck.

and as for your "tey will die while waiting!!!!" argument:

Quote:
Business Week, no great fan of a national healthcare system, reported in late June that "as several surveys and numerous anecdotes show, waiting times in the U.S. are often as bad or worse as those in other industrialized nations -- despite the fact that the U.S. spends considerably more per capita on health care than any other country."



A Commonwealth Fund study of six highly industrialized countries, the U.S., and five nations with national health systems, Britain, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, found waiting times were worse in the U.S. than in all the other countries except Canada.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 09:33 AM
 
2,643 posts, read 2,434,347 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkel25 View Post
Whoa, what now?

*runs to check copy of Constitution*

Can you tell me where it says we have a "right to health"?
can you tell me where in the constitution it says we have the right to:

police
firefighters
libraries
public education
roads
social security

no where, yet we still have them, our fore fathers must be shamed!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 09:36 AM
 
2,643 posts, read 2,434,347 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkel25 View Post
And the free market has allowed us to develop an incredibly advanced and effective health care system. The problem is that overregulation had contributed to raise the costs far higher than a true free market would have been able to bear.
i couldnt let this one pass up

Quote:
Unfair comparison!" cry the pro-market ideologues. Our private system spends mightily on research and development, creating miracle drugs which these other systems take advantage of without paying full cost for. Nonsense.

In America, most pharmaceutical and medical research is paid for with government money. During the 1990s the federal government spent over $10 billion annually on pharmaceutical R&D.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 03:05 PM
 
2,329 posts, read 6,615,964 times
Reputation: 1811
Chicago had a heat wave 10 years ago that killed over 600 people in 3 days. No, it wasnt 11,000. However, as previous posters have mentioned Europe is not used to extreme heat. It would be the equivalent of having a 2 foot blizzard in Miami...its just not something you prepare for, or have the capacity to deal with.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 05:28 PM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,708,287 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkm370 View Post
can you tell me where in the constitution it says we have the right to:

police
firefighters
libraries
public education
roads
social security

no where, yet we still have them, our fore fathers must be shamed!!
Police, fire departments, libraries, and roads are all more or less local or state run. There is some federal funding, also, though, which I disagree with.

Public education is one of the worst tragedies to befall America in a long time. The federal government has no business sticking its nose into education at all.

Social Security is also a tremendous disaster, which probably has our Founding Fathers spinning in their graves. It's in my top 5 government programs that I would get rid of (along with the Department of Education, btw).

However, MorningGlory specifically said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningGlory
In the US Bill of Rights it says loud and clear that we have the "right" to health
So your reply is rather puzzling. He did not say that universal health care was not unConstitutional...he said that it is specifically granted in our Bill of Rights...which it clearly is not.

Last edited by dunkel25; 01-09-2008 at 06:23 PM.. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2008, 07:36 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,521,481 times
Reputation: 22472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Hmmm. Speaking of preventable deaths, I guess no one remembers the heat wave which killed thousands of senior citizens in France in the summer of 2003 when the entire country went on vacation. An atrocity like this would have horrified Americans....


USATODAY.com - France heat wave death toll set at 14,802

More Than 11,000 (11,435) Heat Deaths in France <Increasing from 10,000>
Getting rid of thousands of senior citizens certainly saves on health care for them -- and keeps them from being counted as preventable deaths the following years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:25 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top