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View Poll Results: Are American men becoming feminized?
Yes, men are. 181 44.80%
No, They are not. 70 17.33%
American women are becoming more masculine 53 13.12%
Men and women are just closer to equality 101 25.00%
This is a society trend or fad that will fade 35 8.66%
Other 17 4.21%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 404. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-09-2008, 08:06 PM
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
595 posts, read 2,339,637 times
Reputation: 193

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Well I don't want to get off on a tangent here but what is a high crime area exactly? People seem to seek out ultra safe, suburbia and you have wide swaths of land in this country that is a wasteland. Or you see it when bad neighbors move in, everyone one else sells to get away from 1-2 people think deem undesirable, soon you have an entire once good area gone to hell. You know what I'm talking about...you have security minded people who gave up areas without a care, and allowed neighborhoods to fall.
And again, SUVs..I've had many people tell me, mostly younger mothers I need this car because it makes me and my kids safe.
I do attribute this to the soccer mom mentality. We are now a security and safety minded society in the United States.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:10 PM
 
1,006 posts, read 1,552,931 times
Reputation: 274
Default Wilderness/feminism

Yes, I agree...taking on a challenge is not the same as "knowingly" moving to an area that might endanger you and your children. The move to the wilderness (pioneers) was to gain land and opportunitiy that was not available "back East" or wherever. That's different than moving to a city where a few blocks can make a difference in the crime rate. Why would you move to a high crime area if you could live somewhere else? You didn't see the wealthy "pioneering", actually.....

I think feminism has a very dark side to it, and in many ways we were scammed as a society by it. The demeaning of men in order to make points really created MORE prejudice against women, in my opinion. I see more exploitive ads, etc., than I ever did "before" feminism, and I think equal pay for equal work, etc., has nothing to do with the male bashing going on. It's really had a negative effect on male/female relations in general, I think. In case you can't tell, I'm a woman.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:41 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,159,747 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBurgess View Post
I think feminism has a very dark side to it, and in many ways we were scammed as a society by it. The demeaning of men in order to make points really created MORE prejudice against women, in my opinion. I see more exploitive ads, etc., than I ever did "before" feminism, and I think equal pay for equal work, etc., has nothing to do with the male bashing going on. It's really had a negative effect on male/female relations in general, I think. In case you can't tell, I'm a woman.
Interesting perspective.

During a similar discussion it was brought up that the feminist movement or more specifically, the equal rights movement was more about economics than social issues. In the course of empowering women to a status more equal with men in the workforce, that it added 30-45% more employees to the workers pool and drove down wages consequently. Where as in the past a single wage earner could carry a household of 4-6 people with relative ease (compared to today), that we arrive today where in most middle and lower income families that both parents must work in order to make ends meet.

One conclusion was that women were duped into wearing the many hats of bread winner, nurturer, homemaker and woman all at once and in the end were a tool of economics more than social change.


Seems there are potentially many rabbit holes to follow on this subject.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:46 PM
 
7,138 posts, read 14,607,678 times
Reputation: 2397
You make very good points, SBurgess. Feminism has gone rancid in ways you mentioned. I of course am glad I have the vote, get equal pay (actually I do!) and equal protection under the law, etc. And for the opportunity to go for higher education, better job opportunities, and have a family too! But just because we CAN do it all, doesn't always make it the best choice. Invariably people close to you may suffer. Mainly any children involved. But that has been hashed out and rehashed, and there are parents willing to warehouse their children in daycare in order to have their own life, their own career. That's not going to change. But it DOES over time change the fabric of our society, in the kinds of people who will make up our country in the future. How many children who have been neglected and unparented will really be able to become well adjusted and stable adults? I think we have a partial answer in the amount of crime now committed by children, the increased number of attempted suicides, the drug/alcohol rate, the STDs that are rampant, as well as teen pregnancy. Not sure how it will impact our society in the decades to come, but don't imagine it will be very positive. My biggest concern is how it weakens our social structure, which allows outside forces to come in and decimate our culture, what is left of it. Is many people's worry, not just mine. Especially those who have children and concerned for their futures. No easy answers, hopefully as a nation we will find some good solutions before is too late.

Maybe due to the many, many ills and dangers present in this society, people have more concerns now than in the past about safety and security?? Just a thought.
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:16 PM
 
1,006 posts, read 1,552,931 times
Reputation: 274
There are so many important points in the last 2 posts. I have so often talked to my friends (women) about how....with the "want it all now" society AND the rising prices/lower wages and supposed "required" lifestyle....it's impossible, almost, to support a family solely on the husband's wages. And, YES, there are fewer jobs for men to support their families because of competition of women entering the workforce. Chicken and egg theory? I am not sure. I think the bloom is off the rose of "career path" by and large after there are children and reality sets in......someone has to "parent" or "mother" them, not just "caretake" them. And, the myth that once they are in school, work is "no problem" is ridiculous. As you pointed out, the increase in problems of older, middle school and teen children, are huge. I have read that there is a monumental increase in diagnosed psychiatric conditions in adolescents over the last ten years. Latchkey kids are under more pressure, we do not live in an agrarian "chore" system of cooperation, neighborhoods are deserted, Grandma is playing golf in Sun City, and there is no "village" to care for our kids while mom works. Thus, computer and TV excess, bad peers, and more.

And, this really HOSTILE level of criticism of men. Who ever said men and women weren't different, anyway, and why wouldn't they be? I feel that many men avoid women MUCH MORE because of this, and it's hard for those of us who are not in critical mode. I think anyone who has spent large amounts of time with "guys" (male dominated sports, male dominated companies) "gets it", anyway, and appreciates (or forms opinions of) men for who/what they are as individuals, taking all factors into account...not because they are men. I think this kind of vituperative, public (and demeaning, I think) criticism of men by supposed "feminists" is immature and damaging. It's on the same page as the kind of sexism and disrespectful portrayal of women in the media that the FEMINISTS THEMSELVES gripe(d) about. There have always been healthy, normal, appropriate roles for both men and women...which have nothing to do with equalizing pay (good), less discrimination (there's still plenty and always will be....frankly, I think there's more but it's more like passive aggression and under cover, anyway....), etc.

The argument of extremes was used by the feminists to make their points. That part has been very damaging to all of us; I see so much more polarization between men and women..
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Northeast TN
3,885 posts, read 8,107,851 times
Reputation: 3658
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkel25 View Post
There is a strong correlation between the decline of the America of our Founding Fathers and Women's Suffarage. The female vote played a large role in getting Roosevelt, the first big time, big-government liberal president, elected. It's been pretty much downhill since then.

And say what you want about the benefits of feminism, but a culture cannot survive when its women are working and not having babies. Greece and Rome suffered from chronic manpower shortages in their waning years, and the only reason the US and Europe do not currently suffer from the same crisis is because of rampant immigration from the 3rd world...from countries which do not share our feminist values and, incidently, are still having plenty of babies. The rise of feminism has led to a population that is not really expanding (immigration notwithstanding)...and populations that do not expand are, sooner or later, squeezed out by populations that are not so "enlightened".

So, debate the relative merits of feminism and the decline of the Western Male, but know that if this trend continues, the Death of the West will come sooner, rather than later. And, I would wager, this wouldn't necessarily be an event that many feminists would mourn...ironic considering that the cultures that will come to dominate in the vacuum that follows are unlikely to tolerate those views.
Are you suggesting that our role as females is to and should remain to reproduce???
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:33 PM
 
1,006 posts, read 1,552,931 times
Reputation: 274
Mookster made some very salient pionts. Walk the streets of any major city, particularly North and East, some Midwest, and see the "new" demographics and there is no question that this RAPID change is exactly what is going on. Everyone who lives in cities talks about this all the time......it is not so much "immigration", it's the "immigrants" not subscribing to the feminist views and, yes, HAVING CHILDREN. Period. Large families. The black community in this country has been having large families, building their own "village" for years, and frankly, have much more familial support as a rule than Caucasian, US families, which are largely nuclear and limited to "1.2" children. As parents age, and life becomes more complicated (as has our culture), small families truly suffer from their own small size (lack of support)....and there is only so much money you can throw at "problems"....which are way beyond "replace the nanny."

Yes, I also feel and the under the radar talk has been......what will happen to Western culture/life "as we knew it"?

What a great point that the 3rd world people who will dominate are the ones who never subscribed to feminism......
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Northeast TN
3,885 posts, read 8,107,851 times
Reputation: 3658
Frankly, I do not see all this man bashing or hostile criticism. In fact, men in our society today have it pretty good. I also don't see why it's always the mother's job to stay home with the kids and if daycare works for you, then why not use it? I know a lot of well-adjusted kids that have been in daycare since birth. They still have "parents"/someone to "mother" them and are definitely not lacking for love or attention in their lives. As women, our brains do not shut down just because we give birth. Many of us have a multitude of interests that include science, math, etc. Why are we not allowed to pursue those interests as a career without someone claiming we are feminists or dragging down the 1950's Leave It To Beaver ideology of the perfect family?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBurgess View Post
There are so many important points in the last 2 posts. I have so often talked to my friends (women) about how....with the "want it all now" society AND the rising prices/lower wages and supposed "required" lifestyle....it's impossible, almost, to support a family solely on the husband's wages. And, YES, there are fewer jobs for men to support their families because of competition of women entering the workforce. Chicken and egg theory? I am not sure. I think the bloom is off the rose of "career path" by and large after there are children and reality sets in......someone has to "parent" or "mother" them, not just "caretake" them. And, the myth that once they are in school, work is "no problem" is ridiculous. As you pointed out, the increase in problems of older, middle school and teen children, are huge. I have read that there is a monumental increase in diagnosed psychiatric conditions in adolescents over the last ten years. Latchkey kids are under more pressure, we do not live in an agrarian "chore" system of cooperation, neighborhoods are deserted, Grandma is playing golf in Sun City, and there is no "village" to care for our kids while mom works. Thus, computer and TV excess, bad peers, and more.

And, this really HOSTILE level of criticism of men. Who ever said men and women weren't different, anyway, and why wouldn't they be? I feel that many men avoid women MUCH MORE because of this, and it's hard for those of us who are not in critical mode. I think anyone who has spent large amounts of time with "guys" (male dominated sports, male dominated companies) "gets it", anyway, and appreciates (or forms opinions of) men for who/what they are as individuals, taking all factors into account...not because they are men. I think this kind of vituperative, public (and demeaning, I think) criticism of men by supposed "feminists" is immature and damaging. It's on the same page as the kind of sexism and disrespectful portrayal of women in the media that the FEMINISTS THEMSELVES gripe(d) about. There have always been healthy, normal, appropriate roles for both men and women...which have nothing to do with equalizing pay (good), less discrimination (there's still plenty and always will be....frankly, I think there's more but it's more like passive aggression and under cover, anyway....), etc.

The argument of extremes was used by the feminists to make their points. That part has been very damaging to all of us; I see so much more polarization between men and women..
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Northeast TN
3,885 posts, read 8,107,851 times
Reputation: 3658
I'm not sure it has anything to do with not subscribing to feminist views. If you look at the stat breakdown, you will find that the majority of this population explosion is due to lack of sex ed and birth control or even education in general. Since I think I'm skating pretty thin to staying on topic here, I will let someone else address the general overpopulation problem that exists in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBurgess View Post
Mookster made some very salient pionts. Walk the streets of any major city, particularly North and East, some Midwest, and see the "new" demographics and there is no question that this RAPID change is exactly what is going on. Everyone who lives in cities talks about this all the time......it is not so much "immigration", it's the "immigrants" not subscribing to the feminist views and, yes, HAVING CHILDREN. Period. Large families. The black community in this country has been having large families, building their own "village" for years, and frankly, have much more familial support as a rule than Caucasian, US families, which are largely nuclear and limited to "1.2" children. As parents age, and life becomes more complicated (as has our culture), small families truly suffer from their own small size (lack of support)....and there is only so much money you can throw at "problems"....which are way beyond "replace the nanny."

Yes, I also feel and the under the radar talk has been......what will happen to Western culture/life "as we knew it"?

What a great point that the 3rd world people who will dominate are the ones who never subscribed to feminism......
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:52 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,159,747 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by MooksterL1 View Post
Frankly, I do not see all this man bashing or hostile criticism. In fact, men in our society today have it pretty good. I also don't see why it's always the mother's job to stay home with the kids and if daycare works for you, then why not use it? I know a lot of well-adjusted kids that have been in daycare since birth. They still have "parents"/someone to "mother" them and are definitely not lacking for love or attention in their lives. As women, our brains do not shut down just because we give birth. Many of us have a multitude of interests that include science, math, etc. Why are we not allowed to pursue those interests as a career without someone claiming we are feminists or dragging down the 1950's Leave It To Beaver ideology of the perfect family?
Well as a man, I have seen a growing trend towards "man bashing". All one has to do is look at any given sitcom on most channels. Take everyone loves Raymond for instance, that depicts the male as always sitting on the couch while his wife comes in dressed in a masculine power suit and basically belittles and berates the man for a 1/2 hour through the use of humor.

I'm certainly not saying that it hasn't existed for women in the past or even at present but it is a growing trend.

I would be willing to bet that there are a fair number of women, who after a divorce or circumstance or through choice, have ended up regretting the attempt at being mother, parent, bread winner, homemaker, etc... It certainly isn't because women are incapable of it as they are probably better equipped to "do it all" than even men are (women are superior multi-taskers) but, what effect does this have on our society as time goes on?
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