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Old 01-09-2008, 10:38 AM
 
2,356 posts, read 3,457,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Yes as its an essential component of our secular government.
What does this mean? How is, say, the United Methodist Church an essential component of the Federal Gov't? The state gov't? local gov't?

Quote:
Religions are not state supported as they are elsewhere.
Good.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:12 AM
 
2,434 posts, read 6,665,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Religion today is more of a business than anything else. Having them tax-exempt lets them build gigantic castles and their successful priests driving jaguars. Should we retain this tax-exempt status? It clearly is not the religion of old, more money is spent for lavish and expensive things than anything. New religions like scientology is a basically a tax shelter used by wealthy celebrities and athletes... Can I start my own religion and protect all my assets? I don't believe religions need or deserve tax exemption..

Religious organizations should remain tax exempt as long as they stick to the business of religion. But when they get involved in politics, like sheltering illegal aliens, or taking sides in political races, then they should lose their tax exempt status.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:42 PM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 992,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
"Scientology cites its tax exemption as proof the United States government accepts it as a religion"

From: Church of Scientology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What don't I get exactly?
How does that benefit wealthy athletes and celebrities?
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:08 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,778,420 times
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I guess you don't understand the "concept" of scientology. You have to tithe (invest) money into their organization and the more you tithe (invest) you get "opportunities" to come closer to the realization of being an all-powerful alien with supernatural powers which is equivalent to "rank" in the organization (i.e. priesthood). As a bonus to rank, you get to "withdraw" money from the church (organization) and use it as you please... so basically the more you put in, the higher rank you are (as you considered a priest instead of a member), you can withdraw those funds (which happens to be invested and earning a nice chunk of interest) tax free... you know who is in it... MANY celebrities, and a few "devout" atheletes.. i.e. tax shelter... yet we continue to praise these celebrities who are basically cheating their taxes
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:14 PM
 
13,631 posts, read 20,700,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous View Post
What does this mean? How is, say, the United Methodist Church an essential component of the Federal Gov't? The state gov't? local gov't?
You misunderstand. I said their tax free status is essential, not any particular church itself. Such status enables them to avoid having to rely on Government funding.

In Germany, a citizen declares his religion on the tax form and they deduct money from your paycheck and give it to the church/temple/mosque. I am not too hip on that.

Other European countries have official religions, although all are allowed of course. The church receives funding directly from the government.

I cannot imagine any of this passing the lithmus test of the US Constitution. Hence my vote for their tax free status.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:22 PM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 992,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
I guess you don't understand the "concept" of scientology. You have to tithe (invest) money into their organization and the more you tithe (invest) you get "opportunities" to come closer to the realization of being an all-powerful alien with supernatural powers which is equivalent to "rank" in the organization (i.e. priesthood). As a bonus to rank, you get to "withdraw" money from the church (organization) and use it as you please... so basically the more you put in, the higher rank you are (as you considered a priest instead of a member), you can withdraw those funds (which happens to be invested and earning a nice chunk of interest) tax free... you know who is in it... MANY celebrities, and a few "devout" atheletes.. i.e. tax shelter... yet we continue to praise these celebrities who are basically cheating their taxes
This is interesting. I did not know that. I did examine the Wikipedia article (which I usually take with a grain of salt, but do acknowledge that they're usually more right than wrong on the big stuff) and nowhere contained therein were the words tithe, deposit, bank, withdraw or withdrawl. Matter of fact, the word "money" is only referenced once, so that article isn't much of a source for your claim (even though people sure do love throwing up a 100,000 word wikipedia article in defense of whatever claim they make)

If that is the case with scientology, then shouldn't the thread be entitled "Should Scientology Be Tax Exempt?" , since that certainly isn't the case with every other religion, as it pertains to its congregation.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:32 PM
 
2,356 posts, read 3,457,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
You misunderstand. I said their tax free status is essential, not any particular church itself.
You said that "It" is an essential component of our government. Whether "it" refers to a religious organization, or the organization's tax exempt status, neither make sense to me. Neither the tax status nor the organization is essential to the gov't. The gov't can exist fine without either.

Perhaps you mean that tax-exempt status is essential to religious orgs staying afloat - in which case I might agree with you.

Quote:
Such status enables them to avoid having to rely on Government funding. In Germany, a citizen declares his religion on the tax form and they deduct money from your paycheck and give it to the church/temple/mosque. I am not too hip on that.
No, that wouldn't fly too well in the U.S., I don't think. Even the way you phrased it seems odd to me - that tax exempt status enables them to not rely on the government, as if relying on the government was an option at all.

The way I see it, tax exempt status enables them to save money, in order to expand their operations. Saying that "it enables them to not rely on the gov't" seems peculiar.

Quote:
Other European countries have official religions, although all are allowed of course. The church receives funding directly from the government.

I cannot imagine any of this passing the lithmus test of the US Constitution. Hence my vote for their tax free status.
It seems like you're only considering two options:
1. Tax-exempt status
or
2. European-style gov't assistance

what about:
3. Neither?
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:38 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,778,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1 View Post
This is interesting. I did not know that. I did examine the Wikipedia article (which I usually take with a grain of salt, but do acknowledge that they're usually more right than wrong on the big stuff) and nowhere contained therein were the words tithe, deposit, bank, withdraw or withdrawl. Matter of fact, the word "money" is only referenced once, so that article isn't much of a source for your claim (even though people sure do love throwing up a 100,000 word wikipedia article in defense of whatever claim they make)

If that is the case with scientology, then shouldn't the thread be entitled "Should Scientology Be Tax Exempt?" , since that certainly isn't the case with every other religion, as it pertains to its congregation.
Obviously wikipedia doesn't have the whole dealings on scientology and would require you to find more information from other sites. I never claimed that it was THE reference for how scientology works only that they ARE tax exempt, which was your question. As to the word "tithe" I believe its in the "proper" word when describing donations to churches. If you really wanted to KNOW more about it, maybe you should research it before coming here and saying that Wikipedia doesn't tell you the answers you are looking for. My question is NOT limited to scientology but to all religions. From christanity to buddhism... why should a religion receive any tax-exempt status when its profits are as comparable to a large business...
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:50 PM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 992,779 times
Reputation: 344
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Obviously wikipedia doesn't have the whole dealings on scientology and would require you to find more information from other sites. I never claimed that it was THE reference for how scientology works only that they ARE tax exempt, which was your question. As to the word "tithe" I believe its in the "proper" word when describing donations to churches. If you really wanted to KNOW more about it, maybe you should research it before coming here and saying that Wikipedia doesn't tell you the answers you are looking for. My question is NOT limited to scientology but to all religions. From christanity to buddhism... why should a religion receive any tax-exempt status when its profits are as comparable to a large business...
I'm sorry, but the case you yourself made is what I'm addressing here.

You intimated that the tax-exempt status of religion somehow benefits wealthy athletes and celebrities by citing Scientology.

When I questioned your command of the tax code, you cited Scientology and then linked to wikipedia, presumably in support of your claim.

Now that we know the Wikipedia article you yourself sourced doesn't address the claim you made, I suggested that your qualms might be with Scientology more than religion, if it is indeed true that Scientology allows its members to "wash" their personal wealth from tax liabilities.

Since we know that no other religion- from Catholicism to Buddhism- permits their congregations to do this, how, then, does the tax exempt status of religions benefit wealthy celebrities and athletes- ie- benefit anyone other than the organization itself?
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:03 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,778,420 times
Reputation: 9283
Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1 View Post
I'm sorry, but the case you yourself made is what I'm addressing here.

You intimated that the tax-exempt status of religion somehow benefits wealthy athletes and celebrities by citing Scientology.

When I questioned your command of the tax code, you cited Scientology and then linked to wikipedia, presumably in support of your claim.

Now that we know the Wikipedia article you yourself sourced doesn't address the claim you made, I suggested that your qualms might be with Scientology more than religion, if it is indeed true that Scientology allows its members to "wash" their personal wealth from tax liabilities.

Since we know that no other religion- from Catholicism to Buddhism- permits their congregations to do this, how, then, does the tax exempt status of religions benefit wealthy celebrities and athletes- ie- benefit anyone other than the organization itself?
I never "claimed" other religions benefits celebritiees... ONLY scientology... perhaps you should re-read the OP. I answered your ambiguous question about "tax-exemption"... your question NEVER asked about how members of scientology benefited... only about the tax-exemption STATUS itself. If you wanted to ask about that, then you should of asked that instead of telling me I don't under tax-exemption status.. again I NEVER said other religions gave benefits to celebrities.. you should read carefully before posting...
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