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Old 01-09-2008, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,436,657 times
Reputation: 1052

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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Pretty hard to fake those little guns boats! Been there seen that in the 80's during the tanker wars. They are the real deal and will hole a ship in a heart beat, ala USS Cole!!!!

What is this supposed to mean? The Cole was damaged by a small boat on a suicide mission, not weapons ordnance.
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:48 AM
 
6,762 posts, read 11,588,822 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuharai View Post
Really? I would more compare it to a person walking on base with a 9mm.

And even though we're supposedly on a "Shoot now, ask questions later" attitude, they waited for proper authorization to fire. But did not. A warning might've been issued over an open frequency - but the news will not report that (if they even get the full transcripts)

I'm also sure that Iran won't openly say, "Yes. We hate you and wanted to blow up your ships!"

I will add: It's easier to say "They should've done this, that, and the other" after the fact than to actually do such action when it happens.

I'll compromise. Instead of a bb gun, a shotgun loaded with buckshot. Has the power to do serious damage, but if you are in a base videotaping me far out of striking distance and I am radioing threats that I'm walking in to open fire, I'm toast.

I'm not saying Iran is not a problem at all. But there is something eerily suspicious about how it is being used by Bush to elevate the fear of anybody who is still listening to him into thinking they are a huge threat and we should go to war.

Think about it. If a speedboat would have attacked and killed 10-20-50 or even a hundred men, it would have been horrible and tragic. But we have the most superior military forces on the planet and I find it awfully difficult to believe that we don't have the capability to detect and eliminate any threats that get to close. And I would think our Navy would be more cautious than ever after the USS Cole in letting any boat get close to us.

But because of the danger posed to the sailors, Bush would like to go to war and get thousands of American troops killed and potentially hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed as a war with Iran would not be the cakewalk that Iraq was and would cause way more casualties and a much bigger quagmire than we already have between Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. I have to question just how much Bush values American lives with his constant interest in war.
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,673,906 times
Reputation: 6745
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
What is this supposed to mean? The Cole was damaged by a small boat on a suicide mission, not weapons ordnance.
Yes the Cole was severaly damaged by a small boat which was not much smaller then the boats used in the recent event. The truth of the mater is the vessels used this weekend are non armored, lightly armed speed boats, Typically they'll have some kind a MG installed along with hand held rockets i.e. RPG. Stingers or the Russian/Chinese equivelent or merely packed with HE and rammed . Their potential strength lies in numbers. Just like bees they'll awarm you till you get stung to death. Naval small boat operations in the PG is like a huge game of chicken, you better not be the first guy to blink!!! Our vessels are not indesrtuctable, see the Cole and the Stark. When it save Saliors llives I'm good with shoot first ask questions latter.......
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Florida (SW)
47,844 posts, read 21,871,995 times
Reputation: 47130
I do believe that this is an orchestrated fake incident. I don't believe it has any more
validity than the photo's of Sadaam's mobile chemical laboratories or the nuclear fission tubes. The Bush administration has used the report of WMD; false photo's; phony news conferences, paid "journalists" to write favorable stories; given press credentials to a gay prostitute so he could attend press conferences and ask softball questions; and has leaked the name of a CIA agent. Is there any doubt that they would release a few photos of speed boats and a Darth Vader electronic voice making threatening taunts.

I can't stretch my credulity enough to believe it. Even if it was true....(the boy who cried wolf).
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,436,657 times
Reputation: 1052
America has a long history of initiating international hostilities on a pretext. It seems to be our preferred M.O. This is consistent with a self-righteous self-image of "shining city on a hill" and such.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,673,906 times
Reputation: 6745
So a couple of thousand American service men are gonna lie or keep a secret like that!!!!! Come on
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Assisi, Italy
1,845 posts, read 4,217,795 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by elston View Post
I do believe that this is an orchestrated fake incident. I don't believe it has any more
validity than the photo's of Sadaam's mobile chemical laboratories or the nuclear fission tubes. The Bush administration has used the report of WMD; false photo's; phony news conferences, paid "journalists" to write favorable stories; given press credentials to a gay prostitute so he could attend press conferences and ask softball questions; and has leaked the name of a CIA agent. Is there any doubt that they would release a few photos of speed boats and a Darth Vader electronic voice making threatening taunts.

I can't stretch my credulity enough to believe it. Even if it was true....(the boy who cried wolf).
Elston

I disagree strongly with you and your conclusions. However, I do wish to applaud your civility. Actually, I am amazed at the general civility on this very controversial thread.

When the moron or idiot or worse words come out, I generally lose interest in what the poster says. Thanks again and kudos to you.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,770,870 times
Reputation: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Builder View Post
Please define "recent". Even the article does not say it is recent. This is very very old news. I have a book called "Don't know much about history" which was written over ten years ago that says the same thing about Tonkin. Everyone who knows a bit about Vietnam history knows this happened..... However, I would enjoy a fruitful discussion about how and why this very dated news has popped up.

This particular study was apparently recently released and was originally disclosed by the NSA in December 2005 "confirming what historians have long argued" ...so perhaps we are just now getting the "official" government admission to what was previously debated in other quarters? My question is why wasn't this made more of in 2005...perhaps the government tried to keep it under wraps due to Iraq?

In any case, it does not change anything, does it? I am not providing conspiracy theories about anything...just suggesting that this is another event that should give us pause... when our leaders suggest their version of a "truth" to us. Sometimes blind flagwaving can lead us to follow into situations we later regret.

The 2002 study was released in response to a Mandatory Declassification Review request filed by Michael Ravnitzky. About 95% of the document was declassified. (Unfortunately, several of the pages were poorly reproduced by NSA and are difficult to read. A cleaner, clearer copy will need to be obtained.)

The most sensational part of the history (which was excerpted and disclosed by the NSA two years ago) is the recounting of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin Incident, in which a reported North Vietnamese attack on U.S. forces triggered a major escalation of the war. The author demonstrates that not only is it not true, as Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress, that the evidence of an attack was "unimpeachable," but that to the contrary, a review of the classified signals intelligence proves that "no attack happened that night."


Newly Declassified National Security Agency History Questions Early Vietnam War Communications Intelligence
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,340,116 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkel25 View Post
LBJ...democrat or republican? I forget...
LBJ was a Democrat, and not the first, or the last Democrat President who lied in order to get the US involved in a war. President Polk (also a Democrat) lied to Congress about the location of US troops when they were attacked by Mexico in order to get the US involved in the Mexican/American war. Those US troops were more than 100 miles within Mexico before Mexico attacked. Polk told Congress that they were still in Texas.

Then there was the manufactured Zimmermann Telegraph that President Wilson (also a Democrat) used to convince Congress to get the US involved in WW I, citing a phony anti-US alliance between Germany and Mexico.

LBJ's lie about the Gulf of Tonkin attack is old news. Everyone knew about that lie back in 1974, which is why Congress repealed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in December of that year.

Then we have Clinton's lie (yet another Democrat) about the genocide in Kosovo in order to get Congress to support his little war. In reality, NATO forces killed thousands more Kosovar civilians than any of the Serbs ever did.

Are you beginning to see a pattern yet?

Last edited by Glitch; 01-09-2008 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,770,870 times
Reputation: 1198
But why do you have to make it into a Democrat/Republican issue at all??

Can't people accept this happens on both sides? Is that too hard to admit??
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