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Old 01-10-2008, 09:23 AM
 
1,394 posts, read 2,765,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
What's the difference.

The point is that the government lies to us. We need to take the manure they throw at us with a grain of salt, not to mix metaphors. They know they can control us with fear.
I'm not controlled by fear...
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Old 01-10-2008, 09:57 AM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,884 posts, read 20,352,675 times
Reputation: 5175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Builder View Post
Okay. I'll say it.

Wasn't the Cole attack made by one speed boat?

You're one of about three people in this thread that make any sense whatsoever with your posts.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:09 AM
 
Location: ✶✶✶✶
15,218 posts, read 30,459,343 times
Reputation: 10851
Hurry up and impeach the chimp (and Cheney too) over the CIA tapes so we can save some lives....one Vietnam wall in DC is enough.

re: the Cole attack, do we really know what happened there?
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,167,491 times
Reputation: 6551
A speed boat loaded with explosives could in fact seriously damage even an aegis class destroyer. Yes the ship could effectively blow the speed boat out of the water. The problem is waiting for the go ahead order to shoot. Once the boat gets to close the main weapons of the destroyer can not be brought to bear. Now you rely on hand held weapons that might not stop the target in time. That speed boat closes to less than 50 yards I don't think the destroyer can hit it. Its too close to the waterline.
Another factor that makes this incident dangerous. This time it was just a ploy. Maybe the next 5 times will be the same. Sailors relax. The Gov relaxes and assumes it is another example of Iran being idiots. Then BOOM we take a hit. 30 or 40 sailors are dead. Millions of dollars in damage is done. But worse still we look weak in the eyes of terrorists. We give them a symbol to rally around. A victory. A 10 thousand dollar speed boat defeats the pride of the US fleet an aegis class destroyer or cruiser.
Some have claimed its a Bush lie. Please... You would never get the 400 sailors on that ship to go along with such a story. I was a sailor and I know it could not be done. You always have a % of sailors who hate the navy. They would gladly tell. Then you have the % who love the navy like I do and they wont be used as a stooge.
Did bush pay some idiots to pilot the boat? I doubt that too. It serves such a small purpose. In politics nothing remains secret very long. That too would come out.
Iran has a history long before GWB of doing this game of chicken.
This was real. The sailors showed more restraint than most of us would have. Cruising in a volatile region? Most would keep their finger on a hair trigger.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:41 AM
 
21,026 posts, read 22,098,045 times
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"""It serves such a small purpose. In politics nothing remains secret very long. That too would come out."""


Yes, AFTER bushy gets his war with Iran! ALL the bush administration lies are there for anyone to see IF they choose to. Doesn't make any difference to SOME. There's still dodos out there who think Iraq had something to do with 9/11.
If the lie gets them what they want why would they care if the truth came out later? Just have one of their pet Supreme court judges to cover it up!
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:56 AM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,159,747 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
A speed boat loaded with explosives could in fact seriously damage even an aegis class destroyer. Yes the ship could effectively blow the speed boat out of the water. The problem is waiting for the go ahead order to shoot. Once the boat gets to close the main weapons of the destroyer can not be brought to bear. Now you rely on hand held weapons that might not stop the target in time. That speed boat closes to less than 50 yards I don't think the destroyer can hit it. Its too close to the waterline.
Another factor that makes this incident dangerous. This time it was just a ploy. Maybe the next 5 times will be the same. Sailors relax. The Gov relaxes and assumes it is another example of Iran being idiots. Then BOOM we take a hit. 30 or 40 sailors are dead. Millions of dollars in damage is done. But worse still we look weak in the eyes of terrorists. We give them a symbol to rally around. A victory. A 10 thousand dollar speed boat defeats the pride of the US fleet an aegis class destroyer or cruiser.
Some have claimed its a Bush lie. Please... You would never get the 400 sailors on that ship to go along with such a story. I was a sailor and I know it could not be done. You always have a % of sailors who hate the navy. They would gladly tell. Then you have the % who love the navy like I do and they wont be used as a stooge.
Did bush pay some idiots to pilot the boat? I doubt that too. It serves such a small purpose. In politics nothing remains secret very long. That too would come out.
Iran has a history long before GWB of doing this game of chicken.
This was real. The sailors showed more restraint than most of us would have. Cruising in a volatile region? Most would keep their finger on a hair trigger.
You post has made me look up the rules of engagement for US ships, and I have to wonder if it should not be modified.

I would never in any stretch of the imagination call this incident a lie or fabricated as I have seen video of these idiots in the speed boats zig zagging in and out of a three warship convoy. Considering the proximity of these boats with no clearance or sane reason for this behavior, I could very well see reducing them to fiberglass shards and dust as justified.

As I said previously, I don't underestimate the danger to a ship as evidenced by what happened to the USS Cole (which was in the process of docking in a semi-hostile port instead of refueled at sea) I have to wonder if the USS Vincennes incident in which a US naval ship shot down an Iranian civilian airliner does not have some role to play in how we engage this type of situation today.

In any case I think it might be prudent to consider, do we fire upon targets that approach in such close proximity with undeclared or potentially hostile intent or do we allow the possibility that one of our ships may take damage and the response is engaging in outright full scale military engagement from the whole of our armed forces?

Of course a non-interventionist foreign policy would go a long way to prevent these situations from arising in the first place but lord knows we can't have that.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:01 AM
 
21,026 posts, read 22,098,045 times
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""Considering the proximity of these boats with no clearance or sane reason for this behavior"







Makes the whole thing suspect.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,167,491 times
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Very true Hilltopper. Iran is an enigma though. They have drawn the line in the sand. Its not just US ships that hey harrass. Its their neighbors too. Anysailor who has cruised the gulf will tell you the Iranians are a constant problem for all shipping.
No they dont attack. They normally just harrass anyone in sight. LOL sort of like the neighbors dog that chases every car that drives by the house. LOL worse still the guy that rides by on the bike.
This analogy applies. How? Iran does have teeth. Iran has bitten others. Iran has a lot of pull with the known terrorist groups. It would be a very easy for Iran to arrange for a terrorist group to suicide attack a ship.
There in lies the true danger of this game of chicken.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:16 AM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,159,747 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Very true Hilltopper. Iran is an enigma though. They have drawn the line in the sand. Its not just US ships that hey harrass. Its their neighbors too. Anysailor who has cruised the gulf will tell you the Iranians are a constant problem for all shipping.
No they dont attack. They normally just harrass anyone in sight. LOL sort of like the neighbors dog that chases every car that drives by the house. LOL worse still the guy that rides by on the bike.
This analogy applies. How? Iran does have teeth. Iran has bitten others. Iran has a lot of pull with the known terrorist groups. It would be a very easy for Iran to arrange for a terrorist group to suicide attack a ship.
There in lies the true danger of this game of chicken.
The best way to stop a dog from chasing cars is to let him catch one.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,167,491 times
Reputation: 6551
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
The best way to stop a dog from chasing cars is to let him catch one.
Tie a rag to a hub cap and drive slow....
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