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Old 02-23-2015, 11:04 AM
bUU
 
Location: Florida
12,077 posts, read 10,680,765 times
Reputation: 8798

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
It is a simple variation of the "I've got mine and to hell with you" syndrome.
Precisely. Cutting through all the vacuous dodges and other rationalizations, the bottom line is that some folks insist on deriving satisfaction from the misery of others by opposing healthcare reform that benefits anyone but themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
That people simply don't want to have to mess with something like that when what they have is working is a valid complaint.
But not a valid rationalization for continuing to leave those less fortunate needlessly suffering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
No, you don't do it politically, wrong, with little care for the details and plan to fix it from there. Doing something wrong just to do something is what is wrong with the government.
Bull. What's wrong with government is how much it is afflicted by the selfishness inherent in making excuses for whining that healthcare reform that took fifteen years to come about came about too rapidly. If there was a shred of integrity in your comment it would have been backed up by actual real nationwide changes to make things better for the less fortunate, not just once but at least twice over that fifteen year period.

It is time for right-wing apologists to stop deceiving themselves and stop spewing such deception unwittingly.

Last edited by bUU; 02-23-2015 at 11:18 AM..

 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:06 AM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,075,058 times
Reputation: 17204
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E View Post
Having money forcefully taken from one person and given to another. If an individual wants the sick to be taken care of, they should do it themselves and use reason and explanation to get others to do it as well (or even guilt them into it). I don't think it's okay to bring violence into the equation by using the guns of government. There's no logical difference between me personally pointing a gun at someone and taking their money, and me telling somebody else to do it so I don't have to...still theft.
Happened to me with quantitative easing.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:07 AM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,075,058 times
Reputation: 17204
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
Taxes are not theft, even if they make you so mad you feel the need to have a hissy fit over them.
Depends. I don't want to get too far off topic but making me pay for Q.E. is indeed theft. Some people gambled with their money, lost and then demanded the government make them whole with my money. That is theft.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:10 AM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,075,058 times
Reputation: 17204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertfchew View Post
There would be a lot more extra cents out of both of our pockets and benefitting people we don't know


If you read what I said IT CLEARLY states that I don't know all the threats maybe they are real maybe they are my imaginary boogey man. If you believe it is imaginary then you already know these people running our govt aren't going to close all foreign bases and bring everyone home.
So as far as you know, what I said would work and you wouldn't be out anything more?

Quote:
Maybe this solution we take money from the prison healthcare system and make that absolute bare bones and whatever money is saved there we can distribute to law abiding low income health care. I could at least see some good to that it takes from those who deserve nothing and gives to your shelf stocker who is at least trying to contribute. Maybe not a total solution but I think more could get on board with that.
I believe that prison for many should be a place they never want to return to.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:16 AM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,075,058 times
Reputation: 17204
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
But not a valid rationalization for continuing to leave those less fortunate needlessly suffering.
No, but they see no way to solve the problems. I doubt we will either, but we could. If the option was UHC done like Obamacare I'm voting no also.

Quote:
Bull. What's wrong with government is how much it is afflicted by the selfishness inherent in making excuses for whining about healthcare reform that took fifteen years to come about. If there was a shred of integrity in your comment it would have been backed up by actual real nationwide changes to make things better for the less fortunate, not just once but at least twice over that fifteen year period.
I've been for UHC for a long time. I'm for it done right. Let's make it clear, neither Obama nor Hillary presented a UHC plan. Selfish was taking these plans behind closed doors so that society would have no input.

That you are still here defending that is why so many are going to fight this. If you don't want to change, others are not going to either.

Quote:
It is time for right-wing apologists to stop deceiving themselves and stop spewing such deception unwittingly.
There is no deception that Obama lied to our face about Obamacare. Where it comes to their health people legitimately do not want lied to.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Palo Alto
12,149 posts, read 8,401,836 times
Reputation: 4190
Pelosi is on record stating additional taxes are not an option for universal or national healthcare. It sounds likes the democrats are the ones to blame for all the needless suffering.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:19 AM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,901,503 times
Reputation: 3461
Quote:
Originally Posted by personne View Post
This is the first time I've ever seen a good argument as to why health care would be difficult to implement in the USA so I wanted to salute that

If I understand well, it's true that, in France at least, probably the rest of Europe too but not sure for all, we (as workers or business owners) pay "in advance" (ie taken from our paycheck, immediately from the source) so it makes it easier to round up the money. But I can understand how the same system would be difficult to adapt in your country.

BUT, here also, there is roughly 50% tax payers and 50% non tax payers (because they earn too little or because they are out of work/retired/children/disabled/etc).

I also wonder how paying for military and huge banks bailing out is ok but health should be an individual's responsability only.

What I mean is OF COURSE getting proper health care is a human's right or should be and I hope it becomes one worldwide one day (although I'll be dead when that happens, no, I'm not thinking only of the Occident).

I actually feel a bit sad that a country who considers itself a leader would be the last in the West to understand that (the rest of us have had the system for +60 years) and still debate it and i'm probably not the only one.

Have we gone this far as to not accept that? What good is there living in the "developped world" if we conduct ourselves like savages wouldn't ? Amass more and more money? For nothing? Money is only useful for what it buys and brings and the true fortunes are education, health, curiosity and willingness to be wrong and learn again. Those shouldn't be on the "free market" line because they ARE necessities to our continuation as human beings, they have a much bigger value than their cost.
Of course I cannot explain the rationale because there's no reasonable way to justify.

Personally, one of the root or underlying causes is the systematic elimination of the concept of 'Community' or the 'Common Good.' These related concepts are antithetical to the concept of 'rugged individualism' & to the notion of 'Privatization as Savior'.

Apparently the 'Commons' as in Public Health, Education, Safety et cetera, even the air we all breathe, & the water we drink seems, to some, to reek of Communism! Socialism! Witches!

It's ridiculous.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:22 AM
bUU
 
Location: Florida
12,077 posts, read 10,680,765 times
Reputation: 8798
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
That is theft.
No it isn't. Perverting the meaning of words to fit your preferred narrative doesn't actually change the meaning of the words, and if you can only support the point you're making by perverting the meaning of words then you really cannot support the point you're making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
No, but they see no way to solve the problems.
So you're giving them a pass for the Nirvana fallacy. Sorry - that's not acceptable.

And despite all your other equivocations, you still haven't presented any evidence that political realities would have progressed the state of healthcare access among the nation's poor any further doing it your way.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:28 AM
 
17,545 posts, read 17,492,655 times
Reputation: 25556
Quote:
Originally Posted by personne View Post
I will take out a quote from your post but still quote the whole because I'm certainly taking it out of context and I apologize for that.



Certainly. It's actually an ideological question so I stand corrected by myself that it is indeed a very "USA" issue.

But maybe, just maybe, it also adds something to society? Like solidarity? Like seeing a stranger as a part of the world you live in instead of dog-eat-dog society? You pay for him, he pays for you and we are all part of a social system that will help us, should we fall under bad times? Wouldn't that be a great addition to society instead of seeing a stranger as a potential thief?

Of course, some people will profit from the system. OF COURSE. But don't forget most people are decent people. I am you without your life experience, you are me without my life experience, etc.

The person some here mock or acccuse could also be them one day.

I truly hope not as I wouldn't wish harm on anyone, but if any "accident of life" happens to any of them, I also hope they'll have the honesty to admit they were wrong about "politics that allow people to not suport themselves".

****Cheate**** happens.

Most people are decent people, keep that in mind :-)
Very utopian ideal, but not realistic because of a segment of our nation's people. There is a significant population who feel things should be given to them or they'll take what they want because they feel entitled to what others have. Most on government assistance use it as an aid until they can earn their own money again. But there's a segment who abuse the system even though they are mentally and physically able to work but choose not to do so. You'd have to see and know these people to see how bad it's gotten and such programs will only make it worse. They aren't a part of our society, they are apart from our society and live within their own community and cultural morals.
 
Old 02-23-2015, 11:32 AM
 
17,545 posts, read 17,492,655 times
Reputation: 25556
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
Precisely. Cutting through all the vacuous dodges and other rationalizations, the bottom line is that some folks insist on deriving satisfaction from the misery of others by opposing healthcare reform that benefits anyone but themselves.

But not a valid rationalization for continuing to leave those less fortunate needlessly suffering.

Bull. What's wrong with government is how much it is afflicted by the selfishness inherent in making excuses for whining that healthcare reform that took fifteen years to come about came about too rapidly. If there was a shred of integrity in your comment it would have been backed up by actual real nationwide changes to make things better for the less fortunate, not just once but at least twice over that fifteen year period.

It is time for right-wing apologists to stop deceiving themselves and stop spewing such deception unwittingly.
No, it's about people who are physically and mentally able to earn wages work for what they want instead of wanting people to give them what others have earned.
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