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Old 01-15-2008, 07:14 AM
 
365 posts, read 697,648 times
Reputation: 69

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elston View Post
All this talk about how the rich get to that "enviable" condition thru their hard work....is really the exception. It is an exception because the vast majority of super wealthy people get to that position by being born into a life of privlege totally absent any hard work on their part.

It is also an exception because I don't hear resentment and anger against someone who has been successful and made a lot of money. The nouveau riche are seen as comical (George Jefferson or Tartuffe) because of their airs and pretentions...but by in large are not resented.

I doubt anyone got rich by going to thrift stores and rummage sales, or by hard work. Hard work gets you minimum wage. Perhaps thru successful marriage, or a successful and honest business, but not through work or thrift. I have known (heck been related to) many a thrifty soul who made do, and saved for a rainy day.....but never got rich. Heck my grandmother saved and used the same teabag two or three times and ate one slice of dry toast for breakfast and worked scrubbing floors and polishing the desks in the offices of the mill. She never got rich.

I don't hate the rich. I do hate the way they buy power and extend their privlege thru legislation that enables them to further exploit the huge majority of the non-rich.
great post. those successful marriages are usually like the dirty old man + golddigger = Hugh Hefner and his 25 year old wife, lol... I save teabags too, Elston, and reuse aluminum foil, Ive even tried to reuse my lotto stubs, hats off to your grannie!

 
Old 01-15-2008, 07:56 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,673,465 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by elston View Post
All this talk about how the rich get to that "enviable" condition thru their hard work....is really the exception. It is an exception because the vast majority of super wealthy people get to that position by being born into a life of privlege totally absent any hard work on their part.
What statistics are you using to come to this conclusion?

Quote:
I doubt anyone got rich by going to thrift stores and rummage sales, or by hard work.
Then you don't know many rich, or you have an unusual definition of "rich".

Quote:
Hard work gets you minimum wage. Perhaps thru successful marriage, or a successful and honest business, but not through work or thrift. I have known (heck been related to) many a thrifty soul who made do, and saved for a rainy day.....but never got rich. Heck my grandmother saved and used the same teabag two or three times and ate one slice of dry toast for breakfast and worked scrubbing floors and polishing the desks in the offices of the mill. She never got rich.
There's a difference between simply hard work and hard, smart work. My father worked hard, but worked n a furniture factory all of his life for a relatively low wage. He had the opportunity to go to aircraft maintenance school after serving in WWII, but made a poor decision not to.
I'm not financially rich, by most people's standard, but I have worked hard from a minimum wage job to where I am not comfortable. I feel I am the rule, more than the exception.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 07:58 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,673,465 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Why on earth would you believe that companies should be above or beyond the reach the law? Companies exist at the pleasure of society. They are incorporated under the law to begin with. They are granted various rights to act as immortal individuals by the law. All individuals have responsibilities and obligations to society, not just to their families. Why should businesses be granted any exemption from such responsibilities? What gives them the right to ignore the well-being of everybody else?
Behold, the definition of fiscal socialism/Marxism.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 08:40 AM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,701,973 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Why on earth would you believe that companies should be above or beyond the reach the law? Companies exist at the pleasure of society. They are incorporated under the law to begin with. They are granted various rights to act as immortal individuals by the law. All individuals have responsibilities and obligations to society, not just to their families. Why should businesses be granted any exemption from such responsibilities? What gives them the right to ignore the well-being of everybody else?
They aren't beyond the reach of laws, but we should not create laws which dictate pay. The notion that if I start a business with *my* money that you have the right to tell me how much I can get paid is insane... or how much I should pay my employees, as long as the contract of employment is mutually agreed upon.

You're twisting statements to say that companies have the right o ignore the well-being of everybody else. Paying someone a market wage isn't ignoring the well-being of others, it's paying a rate based upon supply and demand. Employment isn't forced.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Florida (SW)
47,937 posts, read 21,918,859 times
Reputation: 47132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Behold, the definition of fiscal socialism/Marxism.
Marxism?, no I think not, although perhaps some Christian Socialism grounded in Christian theology and upheld by Mother Theresa and Pope John and John Paul and many Christian philosophers.

I thought that with some of the posts we were seeing the definition of facism; but I think the two extremes are the exception. I have read a lot of good common sense in many of the posts.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 08:58 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,673,465 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by elston View Post
Marxism?, no I think not, although perhaps some Christian Socialism grounded in Christian theology and upheld by Mother Theresa and Pope John and John Paul and many Christian philosophers.

I thought that with some of the posts we were seeing the definition of facism; but I think the two extremes are the exception. I have read a lot of good common sense in many of the posts.
Certainly many of posts include common sense. However, one's perspective is what I've been addressing. If one supports the principle that everyone should work for the common good, a tenet of Marxism, then many good points have been made to support that view.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,613,550 times
Reputation: 24858
Truth hurts - Post #10 - an economic disagreement does not rate a claim that I am Insane. That is an insult to my intelligence and I am offended. You may disagree with me but you may not insult me.

Abuse of "the power of the Magistrate" is why we have a 2nd Amendment to our Constitution. That and common ownership of game prevents most of the abuse of the landless poor by the landed gentry.

If you wish to call me a Socialist I will accept that name with pride.

Last edited by GregW; 01-15-2008 at 09:24 AM.. Reason: Added post nunber and comment
 
Old 01-15-2008, 12:22 PM
 
711 posts, read 930,669 times
Reputation: 364
Smile Anti-Rich?

A complex issue, I think most of us would agree.Some negative sentiments toward the rich are not without merit. Some see the richs pursuits as the only creator of their wealth. However, there is also the exploitation of the less fortunate and the sometimes persistant thrusts both mental and sometimes physical that have accompanied the rising of individuals to great wealth.
The American labor movement has well documented events of inhumanity to workers. Bosses were aided by police in many US cities to quell worker unrest. There was a well known incident in Baltimore where union workers and wanna-be union members were billy-clubbed by police by the insistance of high brow boss types. Some workers died from the beatings. There were many other incidents nationwide.
Of course today many regard unions as a unnecessary evil and have attempted to replace them with their suck-up charm and what they believe to be their superior intelligence.
Then we have those who have become at least somewhat successful in harnessing the great machine to their personal advantage--the US Gov't. A well known magnate proclaimed "once I found a way to get my hand in THAT cookie jar I was home free".

Also, what riles many Americans is the extremity of the inequalities in our society and the strife it creates. Top executives in corp's. making 100's of times the average workers wages. The extremism of their purchases and practices. The Gov't. that allows unbridled favors to allow this conduct to the detriment of honest working Americans.

I see much of this as not the whine of jealosy but rather the disdain of the lack of truth and justice in our society.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 12:32 PM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,673,465 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluskyz View Post
A complex issue, I think most of us would agree.Some negative sentiments toward the rich are not without merit. Some see the richs pursuits as the only creator of their wealth. However, there is also the exploitation of the less fortunate and the sometimes persistant thrusts both mental and sometimes physical that have accompanied the rising of individuals to great wealth.
The American labor movement has well documented events of inhumanity to workers. Bosses were aided by police in many US cities to quell worker unrest. There was a well known incident in Baltimore where union workers and wanna-be union members were billy-clubbed by police by the insistance of high brow boss types. Some workers died from the beatings. There were many other incidents nationwide.
Of course today many regard unions as a unnecessary evil and have attempted to replace them with their suck-up charm and what they believe to be their superior intelligence.
Then we have those who have become at least somewhat successful in harnessing the great machine to their personal advantage--the US Gov't. A well known magnate proclaimed "once I found a way to get my hand in THAT cookie jar I was home free".

Also, what riles many Americans is the extremity of the inequalities in our society and the strife it creates. Top executives in corp's. making 100's of times the average workers wages. The extremism of their purchases and practices. The Gov't. that allows unbridled favors to allow this conduct to the detriment of honest working Americans.

I see much of this as not the whine of jealosy but rather the disdain of the lack of truth and justice in our society.
What is just about demanding that money be taken from one individual to provide for another? Isn't this the epitomy of greed? What is just about the government, union thugs, or employees demanding that a business owner provide X amount of pay or benefits which are contrary to the employment contract? What is just about ANY person dictating what another individual can or cannot spend his/her money on? Would you consider it justice if all individuals possessed the same wealth and/or possessions regardless of knowledge, educational investment, ambition, or experience?
 
Old 01-15-2008, 12:51 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,198,959 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
Quote:
What is just about demanding that money be taken from one individual to provide for another? Isn't this the epitomy of greed? What is just about the government, union thugs, or employees demanding that a business owner provide X amount of pay or benefits which are contrary to the employment contract? What is just about ANY person dictating what another individual can or cannot spend his/her money on? Would you consider it justice if all individuals possessed the same wealth and/or possessions regardless of knowledge, educational investment, ambition, or experience?
What is just about the government speaking on my behalf or telling me what I can or can't do?
Does being the majority (or since the rich just 'buy' the majority votes) automatically mean that you are right?
It's just the classic case of the minority (the rich & powerful) ruling over the majority (the not rich & powerful).
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