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"Rabbi Menachem Creditor, who has been performing same-sex marriages since 2002 — four years before the movement permitted them — said that Jewish law is flexible, and should respond to changes within the Jewish community.“Modern halachah has always seen the Torah as its center, but not any one meaning as the final interpretation,” said Creditor, the rabbi of Berkeley’s Congregation Netivot Shalom. “There is a growing understanding from within Conservative Jews that our responsibility is to steward our community with clarity. Conservative Judaism believes halachah changes when it must.”"
Do you know what Halachah is? It is Jewish law and jurisprudence, based on the Talmud
Do you know what the Talmud is? It is the body of Jewish civil and ceremonial law and legend comprising the Mishnah and the Gemara.
Do you know what the Mishnah and Gemara are?
Basically, you are trying to deny the truth of the Torah and the fact that all world religions believe that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God, by finding 3 Rabbis who rely on secondary sources to rationalize their personal need to change with the whims of the community. Not surprising the first Rabbi you list is from Berkley. LOL
Just because I am Jewish, doesn't mean that 3 Rabbis' opinion changes the word of God as revealed in the Torah.
So, in your mind, the 1st Amendment protection of the free exercise of religion in conditioned on the strict requirement of a person to adhere completely to your determination of what constitutes a conflict with your understanding of what her religious beliefs should be?
What is your basis for claiming that she has not been consistent in her religious objections to providing services where to do so would violate her constitutionally protected right?
Have you got examples of where she engaged in services in opposition with her religious beliefs and was sued and threatened with destruction of her business and livelihood as a result?
As long as she's consistent and fair across the board. If a business owner doesn't want to serve homosexuals getting married, fine, then don't pick and choose which acts people participate in are subject to denying their business under a religious guise.
If you were paying attention (Shocking, you weren't), I was presenting a general response to Don. If a business owner wants to deny someone on religious basis, then just be consistent. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
Show me where there are clear, definable statements in the bible that make it clear that serving black people, allowing black/white people to marry or allowing black people to associate on the same footing as whites in school, public property or anything else is an abomination and a sin in the eyes of God.
No, really, I want to see those quotes...and not quotes that were then interpreted and twisted to fit someone's own meaning.
The bible is full of contradictions and I'm not about to start throwing verses at you so that you can find contradicting material. You are asking me to provide clear quotes when it is readily apparent that there are plenty of quotes to support whatever agenda you'd like to support.
The bible is interpreted in so many different ways that different sects were born.
What's interesting is the usage of old testament logic in order to fit anti-homosexual agendas but then ignoring the rest of the book that says plenty of other silly stuff like not mixing fabrics and how thick the stick should be that you beat your slave with.
The bible is not an authority on anything ESPECIALLY law. Whatever your religious convictions, they are not relevant to the law and everyone is to be treated equally. The law of the state she lives in prohibits this type of discrimination PERIOD.
The 1st amendment doesn't allow you to just do whatever the hell you want as long as it's in the bible.
Of course you are. When the going gets tough and you can't defend against logic, the next arrow in your quiver is to proclaim me a troll and run back to your echo chamber.
No hard feelings, it hurts to think.
Are you serious? You consistently fail to grasp the legal arguments, and yet you feel you are displaying logic? Well, that is interesting.
LOL You told me I am free to marry anyone I want. On that basis, your logic indicates I am free to marry my sister or my dad. I asked you for clarification on my freedom to marry who I choose and you can't handle the fact that I swiftly defeated your simplistic statement.
BTW, I asked a question based on YOUR argument. Are you stating that YOU made a straw man argument?
you DO realize back in the day people DID marry their own, right? what happened? certainly a book didn't change that. social norms evolved and changed. hell greeks tended to show homosexuality and had their boys. today we look down on that, but those of us who are rational and critical thinkers who don't blindly follow a book written by man thousands of years ago understand this.
we used to marry off girls when they were 11-15. any girl older was seen as useless. basically their version of the crazy cat lady back then.
what irks me about folks like you is you flip flop between old testament and new. ironically the old testament would be considered more the Quran. Ha! a religion most of you Christians hate (and I find it ironic)
Mark is probably rolling in the floor laughing to hard to respond so I would just like to point out, while he catches his breath, that he is an attorney.
That explains sooo much. Having attended law school and having worked with lawyers the entirety of my career, I have learned that being a lawyer doesn't make you a legal scholar.
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The best approach would be not to start a business if you cannot abide by the laws of your state and country in running that business. That avoids the conundrum.
The best approach would be for elected officials to be held to their oath of office, to uphold the Constitution and stop legislating special privileges to certain classes based on the cash return they expect to their campaign coffers.
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I would hope that only unmarried people need flower arrangements for a wedding. Otherwise, they might run afoul of bigamy laws.
So now you want to talk marriage equality for polygamists?
But your sexual preferences and religion itself have little to do with my argument that people have a right to chose whom they do business with and can refuse services to any-one they chose. Also people have a right to practice their religion as they see fit as long as it does not harm any-one it's all good.
That is her right, if she does not want to provide flowers to a gay wedding, that is her right and any government or law that deprives her that right is my enemy.
They have all these rights already. What you're advocating is exercising illegal activities under the guise of rights. Bottom line is that its against the law to do illegal things, no matter what your justification is. Yu don't get to decide which Laws to follow and which ones you can ignore.
People have the rights your clamoring for. They just can't break the Laws. Its not rocket science.
The bible is full of contradictions and I'm not about to start throwing verses at you so that you can find contradicting material. You are asking me to provide clear quotes when it is readily apparent that there are plenty of quotes to support whatever agenda you'd like to support.
The bible is interpreted in so many different ways that different sects were born.
What's interesting is the usage of old testament logic in order to fit anti-homosexual agendas but then ignoring the rest of the book that says plenty of other silly stuff like not mixing fabrics and how thick the stick should be that you beat your slave with.
The bible is not an authority on anything ESPECIALLY law. Whatever your religious convictions, they are not relevant to the law and everyone is to be treated equally. The law of the state she lives in prohibits this type of discrimination PERIOD.
The 1st amendment doesn't allow you to just do whatever the hell you want as long as it's in the bible.
The laws related to mixing fabrics or eating shellfish are not called out as sins by God, the words state specifically that such foods are an abomination and not to eat them. When discussing these laws, God explains, "For I am the Lord your God, and you shall sanctify yourselves and be holy, because I am holy..."
When discussing homosexuality and incest and bestiality, God distinguishes these acts as mortal sins and is clear that, "Ye therefore shall keep My statutes and Mine ordinances, and shall not do any of these abominations..." "For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, even the souls that do them shall be cut off from among their people."
So your argument about picking and choosing is wrong. There are commandments that are meant as Mitzvot or in honor of God. They are meant to be followed to sanctify the follower and honor God...not doing them is not a sin, it is disrespectful to God. If you commit the sins set out in Leviticus, God tells you that you will be punished.
Show me where there are clear, definable statements in the bible that make it clear that serving black people, allowing black/white people to marry or allowing black people to associate on the same footing as whites in school, public property or anything else is an abomination and a sin in the eyes of God.
No, really, I want to see those quotes...and not quotes that were then interpreted and twisted to fit someone's own meaning.
"Brinton, author of “Balancing Acts: Obligation, Liberation and Contemporary Christian Conflicts,” says both the Union and the Confederacy invoked the Bible to justify their positions on slavery.
Slaveholders justified the practice by citing the Bible, Brinton says.
They asked who could question the Word of God when it said, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5), or "tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9)."
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