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Old 03-12-2015, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
30,976 posts, read 21,570,693 times
Reputation: 9675

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Sure! Just quit your job. Move. Let unions dictate your life.

Freedom? You shouldn't have to pay to get or remain on a job. You get a job to make money, not to pay someone your money for the privilege of being able to provide for yourself and your family.

In your philosophy you don't believe in freedom. Why don't you move to a country that wasn't founded on freedom? I'm sure you'll be much happier there.

That's just as ludicrous as what you espouse.
You very obviously don't believe in democracy.

 
Old 03-12-2015, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
30,976 posts, read 21,570,693 times
Reputation: 9675
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangman66 View Post
Union are a joke in todays day and age. Ive been in several unions, one where it was mandatory and others where it was optional. Though I paid my dues the union will still represent those that do not. So what was the point in paying? Unions are a bunch of cry babies in my opinion. Some people just want to work, not suck everything out of their employer. If you aren't happy with where you work maybe you should find one elsewhere. Instead of protesting because you think you are worth more why don't you show your worth and get back to work.
As I mentioned before, I support a nationwide right to work law, provided that unions are no longer required to support freeloaders whenever they have a grievance. That way fair is fair.
 
Old 03-12-2015, 12:49 PM
 
46,222 posts, read 26,988,484 times
Reputation: 11092
WOW....someone is trying to stretch something very far.....
 
Old 03-12-2015, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,108,889 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by GABESTA535 View Post
Conservatives and big business have known for a long time how easy it is to turn one part of the working class against another while they sit at home eating lobster and laughing all the way to the bank.
You mean like when Liberals and Unions discriminated against Blacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
I suggest import tariffs and internal taxes high enough to negate the savings created by companies that are not unionized.
Explain in detail how an import tariff prevents a Romanian from buying goods made in a foreign State by a US company.

Some people still just don't get it.

The sole issue is Market Share.

Back in the day, US corporations competed only against other US corporations in the US for Market Share.

Remember Durant? General Motors fires Durant, so Durant teams up with Louis Chevrolet and they start making Chevrolet cars. Chevrolet gains Market Share very rapidly, eating away and taking all the Market Share of General Motors. Durant takes his profits --- generated through his large Market Share --- and starts buying General Motors stocks, and the next thing you know...

....Durant owns 51% of GM stocks and has controlling interest. Durant calls a shareholder meeting --- his right majority shareholder; nominates himself as the CEO of General Motors --- his right as majority shareholder; and then casts 51% of the votes for himself -- his right as majority shareholder.

So not only does Durant own General Motors, he becomes the CEO.

The world is no longer the US.....it is global now.

Market Share is global, not domestic.

You either gain and hold global Market Share, or you get Zenithed....


Quote:
1995: LG gains a 58 percent controlling stake in Zenith by buying $351 million in stock.

Nov 14, 1999 - What's an American industrial icon worth? Try 200 million bucks. That's what LG Electronics paid when it acquired Zenith in a bankruptcy.
Your plan would put 90% of the 3% of US businesses that are publicly traded corporations out of business.

The World is bigger now....

Mircea
 
Old 03-12-2015, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,108,889 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
How do unions violate peoples' freedom? No one forces you to work in a unionized workplace.
You're denied....just as though you're denied service in a restaurant for being the wrong color.

Or being forced to ride on the back of the bus for being the wrong color.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
In a lot of states, people can bypass the wishes of their legislators by getting the required number of signatures for a petition calling for the people to vote on a desired issue. If people don't want to be bothered with doing that, then they don't want Right to Work for their state bad enough.
Fail.......massive fail.

You just debunked everything you said on this thread.

If the 3% of US businesses that are publicly traded corporations wanted Right-to-Work....

....then they would bank-roll it and get it passed
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss View Post
The position being posted against unionization is one drawn out of the corp. playbook on how to stop a union.
Unions stop themselves.....

Quote:
1995: LG gains a 58 percent controlling stake in Zenith by buying $351 million in stock.

Nov 14, 1999 - What's an American industrial icon worth? Try 200 million bucks. That's what LG Electronics paid when it acquired Zenith in a bankruptcy.

The wonderful union benefit here is that all of the former Zenith union employees who didn't fake worker's comp claims or Social Security Disability claims, got jobs at Wal-Mart and McDonald's.


Your refusal to address Reality is a page right out of the Liberal Play-Book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss View Post
Right to work = the right to earn less and the right to have less benefits.
Says who?

Since I'm intelligent, why would I let someone I don't even know determine what benefits I should have?

I should join a union to get healthcare benefits?

Why?

I'm a disabled veteran. I get worker's compensation from the VA.

While I get worker's comp from the VA, I do not get education benefits, like the Old GI Bill or New GI Bill.

I would like to have education benefits, but the unions won't let me.

A souse receives healthcare benefits from her non-union employer. Why should her spouse in a union pay for healthcare benefits that are neither needed nor wanted?

Why don't unions allow members who don't want to healthcare benefits to get equivalent cash benefits instead?

Vote for Jimmy Hoffa.....


Mircea
 
Old 03-12-2015, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,108,889 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Is it 'real principles' or does it demonstrate axiomatic thinking without plausible, practical, logical, real-time, real-world application? In other words ...

Libertarianism - Liberapedia
What kind of nonsense is that?

I'm not a Libertarian, but seeing how they are so stupid they can't even gain control of a local school board, I'll defend against a totally fallacious article filled with lies, innuendos and misrepresentations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
... Pitfalls of LibertarianismEdit
Libertarians tend to be supporters of unchecked corporate power,...
Corporations are only 3% of all US businesses.

Corporate power is derived directly from government, and corporations are dependent upon government for their existence...

no government = no corporations

small government with limited powers = small corporations with limited powers

big government with broad unchecked powers = big corporations with broad unchecked powers


No doubt the blithering idiot who wrote the article is oblivious to Entity Theory.

[quote=ChiGeekGuest;38786191]That means businesses may force whatever they like onto their employees and those who buy their products.[/qiuote]

No, wrong, Consumers always have a choice.

Employees have a choice, too.....they can start their own business. And if they are too damn stupid, pathetic, lazy or weak to run their own business, then they can find someone who is capable of running their business and pay that person for doing so.

The fact that neither Consumers nor Workers want to exercise the choices they have does not negate the fact that they have choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
If workers are too weak to fight back against a bullying boss, that's just too bad.
Equivocation
Equivocation is the illegitimate switching of the meaning of a term during the reasoning.

You might want to tell the idiot who wrote the article that bosses and employers are not necessarily one in the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
The top 1% of the population has an overwhelming advantage in securing top-level jobs,....
68% of the 1% are not "bosses."

68% of the 1% are athletes, musicians, entertainers on TV, film or drama, or are celebrities of some sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Libertarians are squeamish towards those in the lower class reaching their full potential.
So making them dependent upon government will certainly motivate them to reach their full potential.

Anyone familiar with the doubling factor?

The 2nd Welfare Generation should be half of the 1st Welfare Generation; the 3rd Generation should be half of the 2nd Welfare Generation; the 4th Generation should be half of the 4rd Generation, the 5th Generation half of the 4th Generation and so on.

If the 1st Welfare Generation was 20 Million households; then the 2nd Generation should be 10 Million households.

3rd Generation 5 Million households
4th Generation 2.5 Million households
5th Generation 1.25 Million households

and so on, but never reaching ZERO, since that is an impossibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
To them, it would be unethical to provide others in society with the same opportunities the wealthy elite receive.
Everyone has the same opportunities.

I authorize you to obtain a weapon and go to the nearest impoverished family and force them --- at gun-point --- to take advantage of the opportunities available to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
If you're born into poverty and your parents are unable to provide a decent upbringing, sad day for you.
Why?

I'm doing just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Libertarians want to restrict or abolish government protection for those who are struggling financially. Ironically, this restricts freedom for the majority.
On the contrary....it imprisons the majority and reduces their potential.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Alternatively, family members who aren't earning a salary or a wage become totally dependent on the economic provider/providers in the family.
That is their own choice. They can become independent anytime they want to be independent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
The Scandinavian nations and other Happy Liberal nations all have mixed economies.....
...and very small homogeneous populations.

Cook County, Illinois has 200,000 more people than the entire Kingdom of Norway.


How many Spanish language radio stations and TV stations do the Scandinavian nation-State kingdoms have?

Defending...

Mircea
 
Old 03-12-2015, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
30,976 posts, read 21,570,693 times
Reputation: 9675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
You're denied....just as though you're denied service in a restaurant for being the wrong color.

Or being forced to ride on the back of the bus for being the wrong color.



Fail.......massive fail.

You just debunked everything you said on this thread.

If the 3% of US businesses that are publicly traded corporations wanted Right-to-Work....

....then they would bank-roll it and get it passed
.



Unions stop themselves.....




The wonderful union benefit here is that all of the former Zenith union employees who didn't fake worker's comp claims or Social Security Disability claims, got jobs at Wal-Mart and McDonald's.


Your refusal to address Reality is a page right out of the Liberal Play-Book.



Says who?

Since I'm intelligent, why would I let someone I don't even know determine what benefits I should have?

I should join a union to get healthcare benefits?

Why?

I'm a disabled veteran. I get worker's compensation from the VA.

While I get worker's comp from the VA, I do not get education benefits, like the Old GI Bill or New GI Bill.

I would like to have education benefits, but the unions won't let me.

A souse receives healthcare benefits from her non-union employer. Why should her spouse in a union pay for healthcare benefits that are neither needed nor wanted?

Why don't unions allow members who don't want to healthcare benefits to get equivalent cash benefits instead?

Vote for Jimmy Hoffa.....


Mircea
Obviously, Mircea, you, too, quite passionately don't believe in the principles of democracy. Unions in states without Right to Work were never welcomed in a workplace, unless the majority of the workers agreed through a majority vote that it was right for them to allow a union to come in there and deduct money from every worker paycheck, whether they wished to become union members, or not. If those workers were to later change their minds and don't like that arrangement, then they're free to exercise the principles of democracy again and vote the damned union out of there.
 
Old 03-12-2015, 01:39 PM
 
34,620 posts, read 21,545,038 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
As I mentioned before, I support a nationwide right to work law, provided that unions are no longer required to support freeloaders whenever they have a grievance. That way fair is fair.
Exactly how were unions ever forced to support anyone?
 
Old 03-12-2015, 01:43 PM
 
34,620 posts, read 21,545,038 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
Obviously, Mircea, you, too, quite passionately don't believe in the principles of democracy. Unions in states without Right to Work were never welcomed in a workplace, unless the majority of the workers agreed through a majority vote that it was right for them to allow a union to come in there and deduct money from every worker paycheck, whether they wished to become union members, or not. If those workers were to later change their minds and don't like that arrangement, then they're free to exercise the principles of democracy again and vote the damned union out of there.
The mistake you can't seem to grasp is that the people who vote to form or join a union are voting to have themselves join it.

Let's say you owned a business and had 10 workers. Those 10 workers got together and voted that you needed to give them a raise. Should there be a law that requires them to honor their democratic vote?

Let's say you were 1 of 10 workers at the office and the other 9 voted that money should be deducted out of your paycheck to provide donuts for everyone each morning. Should there be a law that requires you to follow that democratic vote?
 
Old 03-12-2015, 02:00 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,593 posts, read 37,398,089 times
Reputation: 29336
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
You very obviously don't believe in democracy.
That's illogical and you couldn't be more wrong. But that OK. It's allowed here in America.
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