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The Muslim population of just three Asian countries - Indonesia, India and Bangladesh - is 530,740,000, which is larger than the entire population of the Middle East.
Granted, there has been plenty of violence in these Southeast Asian countries, but there is no ISIS. If religion is pushing people to violence, I would expect to see evidence in the most Muslim area of the planet, but it doesn't appear to be so. Is ISIS coming to Indonesia? Or is this something particular to the Middle East?
While South & Southeast Asia have over one billion Muslims, this accounts for only 24.8% of the population. There are only one-third as many Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa, but this accounts for 91.2% of the population. Then again, Indonesia is 88.1% Muslim; Bangladesh 90.4. So, I'm not sure if this has significance. Thoughts?
Your question revolves around the society that exists there and how IT is organized.
ISIS is an effort to establish a caliphate. That being defined as an area of ruled land, which is ruled by Islam - period. No democracy, no deviation, just the dictates of the religious authority in all things.
ISIS currently exists as a self described Islamic order, doing as Mohammed did, to establish an Islamic state. It is funded by and brought assets by, moneyed interests in other states. The area in which it exists is poor, has little influence and is sparsely populated.
It would be like well funded mercenaries taking over a small, poor nation in a desert country. If nobody from the outside helps them, they will fall rapidly. The region is tribal in nature and by offering some of the tribes favored status, they have created alliances to assist in the subjugation of the rest.
Neither Indonesia or Bangladesh offer the same kind of sparsely populated, isolated, tribal region, with porous borders with states that are funding and arming them. They are funding themselves by theft, sales of antiquities, and outside money.
None of this would be possible, in the densely populated places you mention. Both Indonesia and Bangladesh are completely capable of fending off such an effort from outside their borders, and their dense population and cultural climate do not lend themselves to such a creation.
Further, ISIS is rallied around ONE person, that being Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who is the self proclaimd caliph. Without him, the whole movement falls apart - as his position as the caliph is what makes the substance of the entire effort. I'm sure there are at least a few who have left both countries to join ISIS, because they want to establish and live in the caliphate.
While that may seem almost beyond comprehension, there are people who long to have such order imposed on the world around them. They seek self enslavement.
Thanks, but that's not what I'm discussing. I'm not trying to understand ISIS per se. I'm pointing out the difference between Islam in two different parts of the world. I'm more interested in why Islamic insurrection hasn't occurred in SE Asia than why it has occurred in the Middle East. What is different about Indonesia and Bangladesh that has protected them from radical Islam? Both have fairly thriving capitalist economies. Is that relevant?
They may not have ISIS in Indonesia, but they have had plenty of terrorism due to Islamic extremists, some affiliated with al qaeda. The people in East Timor would also dispute they peaceful nature of those in Indonesia. If you look at trends in Bangladesh, you'll also see that terrorism is a significant and growing concern.
Turkey is another example to consider. Turkey is a democracy and even a member of NATO, and has been considering joining the EU for 10 years. But in recent years there seem to be more sightings of Islamism. They were even cooperating w/ al Nusra for a while although evidently that has come to a halt. Who knows what will happen there in another 25 years.
Again, I remember Iran as a kid moving towards westernization, before the days of the Ayatollah K.
Turkey is another example to consider. Turkey is a democracy and even a member of NATO, and has been considering joining the EU for 10 years. But in recent years there seem to be more sightings of Islamism. They were even cooperating w/ al Nusra for a while although evidently that has come to a halt. Who knows what will happen there in another 25 years.
Again, I remember Iran as a kid moving towards westernization, before the days of the Ayatollah K.
The birthplace of Islamism is Egypt. I work with a guy who grew up there in the 1950s and 60s - he's not an Arab; his father was an international business man. He states Egypt was more or less western when he was there. There weren't crazy extremists.
Actually we really have no idea if Isis is confined to the Middle East. Muslims in Indonesia and the Philippines have pledged allegiance to Isis. The radicals I mean. I am just going with the assumption that they have people everywhere. Bigger and more clever than Al Queda. Isis is a very dangerous enemy.
Actually we really have no idea if Isis is confined to the Middle East. Muslims in Indonesia and the Philippines have pledged allegiance to Isis. The radicals I mean. I am just going with the assumption that they have people everywhere. Bigger and more clever than Al Queda. Isis is a very dangerous enemy.
I agree. I think the best way to understand ISIS is to think of it like the Communist movement. It's a transnational political movement that has managed to capture state terroritory and has appeal to people all over the world for whatever reason. If and when, ISIS' leader, Al Baghdadi, is butchered like the animal he is, the impulse behind ISIS won't die. This is a war of ideas. Those who think it's Islam we're at war with are wrong ... in fact, some of our most important allies in this fight will prove to be Muslims (Jordanians, Egyptians, even Saudis). We're at war with jihadism (for lack of a better term), a dangerous political ideology developed in the 1950s and 60s. I've been doing some research since this thread was started and have found that Sayyid Qutb was heavily influenced by Leninism... doesn't surprise me one bit.
No, that's Wahabbism -- different century. The ideology driving ISIS is a much more recent phenomenon.
Not sure what you mean by "Islamism"; I was referring to Islam's origins. If you mean the roots of ISIS, I'd welcome your source that it began in Egypt.
I agree. I think the best way to understand ISIS is to think of it like the Communist movement. It's a transnational political movement that has managed to capture state terroritory and has appeal to people all over the world for whatever reason. If and when, ISIS' leader, Al Baghdadi, is butchered like the animal he is, the impulse behind ISIS won't die. This is a war of ideas. Those who think it's Islam we're at war with are wrong ... in fact, some of our most important allies in this fight will prove to be Muslims (Jordanians, Egyptians, even Saudis). We're at war with jihadism (for lack of a better term), a dangerous political ideology developed in the 1950s and 60s. I've been doing some research since this thread was started and have found that Sayyid Qutb was heavily influenced by Leninism... doesn't surprise me one bit.
You made a great post but I think we can expand on this a little bit more.
I do not think we can accurately portray ISIS with the Communist movement, since much of the Islamic world in its history has been against Communism. ISIS is trying to make this a transnational political movement but this is what they want to be referred to as, so I will confirm there aspirations. This is a mission to establish a caliphate and rule over all of those who oppose, which includes the Shia. IMO, this is not just a battle of Jihadist but its also political, ideological, and geo-political. Yes, our allies are fighting against ISIS, but its to protect their government to be overthrown. Qatar and Turkey and to another extend Saudi Arabia, are funding Islamist groups who's ideology is part of the same poisonous tree, for its own political interests. Iran through Shia proxies if fighting to establish a Shia hegemony in the region. ISIS is now simply either a tool to the Sunni's or a foe to the Shias in ones political interests.
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