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Old 01-13-2008, 11:11 AM
 
365 posts, read 697,648 times
Reputation: 69

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about the ketchup thing, lol, it was on all the other tables in dispensers that was red, thats why I didnt understand why they didnt get it... lol, seriously it was not an issue of any magnitude, I think we just kind of had a clueless waiter, lol...but it did seem VERY apparent they didnt MOD CUT...lol

Last edited by NewToCA; 01-13-2008 at 12:17 PM.. Reason: language
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,219,543 times
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You should have asked for your frites avec mayo. They use a mayo sauce on their fries, or perhaps curry.

I'll second the need for a small language book for travel. I've traveled to Thailand over a dozen times and still use my language books. If I can't figure out how to ask something, sometimes people will help me out with the book.

Talking about personal space, try large cities in Korea and China. OMG! Culture shock big time. I've learned to bend and flow with the traffic.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:47 PM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 992,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
There is so much more diversity in Europe than in the US
Uh, I'm going to have to disagree with that.
The American model, from the very beginning, was structured around the admission of all peoples from all countries. As such, we're an extremely diverse mixture, far more so than almost any other nation on earth.

As a Swede, there's a pretty good chance your neighbors are Swedes, your co-workers are Swedes, your friends and family are Swedes, etc. I bet most of them can trace their roots pretty far back into Scandinavia. Sure, there's probably a smattered mixture of different people here or there, but it is nothing like the US.

For example, my own 'ethnic etymology' is as follows: Norwegian, Italian, German, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, English.
My fiancee is Polish, Irish, German and Native American.
Our kids will be Norwegian/Italian/German/Polish/Scottish/Irish/Native American/Welsh/English.
Pretty much everyone I know is like this... ethnic mutts

On my way into work today, I encountered a few Asians, a lot of blacks, plenty of Hispanics (white and brown), and I work for an Indian (the dothead kind, not the Buffalo kind). I don't think I'll see that in Stockholm.

So, no. I don't think you're "more diverse" in Europe. Centuries of guarded borders has ensured that.
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:21 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,524,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
Precisely. I'm a Swede, and I would NEVER EVER call myself a European. You constantly hear that "There is no 'general American', because the US is so big and diverse". But then there's always an adding "But we're not like the prissy Europeans".

I'm sorry, but the US is ONE country. If one cannot lump all Americans together, who are ALL of the SAME people, then how can someone lump all Europeans together when Europe consists of 47 countries? There is so much more diversity in Europe than in the US, so why do Americans keep insisting on calling us Europeans as if we were of the same people?

If the OP wants to talk about rudeness in Italy, please do so. Don't lump all of us living on the European continent together as if we were one people. We're not. Differences between Italian culture and for example Swedish or Dutch or British etc is ocean deep- just because something happened in Italy it does not even remotely mean that the same will happen in another European country.
Just as if I went to Argentina and found people to do something, I wouldn't expect Americans do the same, or even ask if it is the same in the US.

Europe is not a country. European is not a people. In every European country there are often many different people, hence the trouble in for example former Yugoslavia and Northern Ireland. Please don't lump us all together as if one experience in one country would apply to all countries. Please.
Sweden, I was preparing to "jump down your throat" but am forced to agree with you. Many of these types of arguments DO have an "apple vs oranges" quality--and as one who loves CONSISTENCY, I must admit that your points are good..as long as YOU admit that it works both ways...

Europe IS a continent (or a 'peninsula of Eurasia')--it's NOT a country. The problem is that the very term 'country' covers such a huge range of definition that it's hard to pinpoint it. China, for example, is a 'country'--but it's so large, and so diverse, that it would be more valid to compare it with 'Europe', than with, for example, Austria---or Portugal.

Iceland and Korea (last I heard) were the two LEAST diverse nations on earth. It's hard to compare them with--for example, Brazil--- or India---or the US, all of which have quite a high degree of diversity. Yet ALL of these places are 'countries'---as if they fit a single, neat 'mold'.

I'm not convinced the 'solutions' that work in some COUNTRIES of Europe (it's a continent, I know) will work in the COUNTRIES of North America. The USA is a rather 'special case'. It was a 'man-made' concept, created by mutual consent, to test a daring, untried experiment---that is, to see if all people of the earth could come here, form a society, and somehow 'get along' together. So far, no one knows for sure if this will work....it's still a 'work in progress'. Even the 'enlightened' nations of Europe learned many of their modern-day democratic, inclusive principles from the early example of the American 'experiment'. Now that some of these nations seem MORE enlightened than WE do here, it doesn't mean we're doing anything 'wrong'. No other nation on EARTH, in my estimation, has quite the diversity, COMBINED with the degree of personal liberty, together, as we have here. It's possible that what we're trying here just won't work. The next few decades will tell.

As far as "the Europeans" go, though, I will make ONE blanket statement. With the current state of immigration into Western Europe today, I don't believe "the Europeans" (of ANY nationality) have much room to criticize the US in its treatment of its diverse component groups. The Europeans are finding out that the benevolent treatment of diverse groups sometimes is much easier in THEORY, than it is in practice..

As for the rest of the world-- they don't have a probem mistreating immigrants, bercause for the most part, they don't HAVE any (at least not in any significant numbers)....and so many times, the US is loudly criticized for the shortcomings in its 'civil rights' records, by places that HAVE no civil rights at all...When that happens, one must consider the source.
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Old 01-15-2008, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Anchorage, Alaska (most of the time)
1,226 posts, read 3,638,893 times
Reputation: 1934
Default What happened to "Eurabia"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Sweden, I was preparing to "jump down your throat" but am forced to agree with you. Many of these types of arguments DO have an "apple vs oranges" quality--and as one who loves CONSISTENCY, I must admit that your points are good..as long as YOU admit that it works both ways...

Europe IS a continent (or a 'peninsula of Eurasia')--it's NOT a country. The problem is that the very term 'country' covers such a huge range of definition that it's hard to pinpoint it. China, for example, is a 'country'--but it's so large, and so diverse, that it would be more valid to compare it with 'Europe', than with, for example, Austria---or Portugal.

Iceland and Korea (last I heard) were the two LEAST diverse nations on earth. It's hard to compare them with--for example, Brazil--- or India---or the US, all of which have quite a high degree of diversity. Yet ALL of these places are 'countries'---as if they fit a single, neat 'mold'.

I'm not convinced the 'solutions' that work in some COUNTRIES of Europe (it's a continent, I know) will work in the COUNTRIES of North America. The USA is a rather 'special case'. It was a 'man-made' concept, created by mutual consent, to test a daring, untried experiment---that is, to see if all people of the earth could come here, form a society, and somehow 'get along' together. So far, no one knows for sure if this will work....it's still a 'work in progress'. Even the 'enlightened' nations of Europe learned many of their modern-day democratic, inclusive principles from the early example of the American 'experiment'. Now that some of these nations seem MORE enlightened than WE do here, it doesn't mean we're doing anything 'wrong'. No other nation on EARTH, in my estimation, has quite the diversity, COMBINED with the degree of personal liberty, together, as we have here. It's possible that what we're trying here just won't work. The next few decades will tell.

As far as "the Europeans" go, though, I will make ONE blanket statement. With the current state of immigration into Western Europe today, I don't believe "the Europeans" (of ANY nationality) have much room to criticize the US in its treatment of its diverse component groups. The Europeans are finding out that the benevolent treatment of diverse groups sometimes is much easier in THEORY, than it is in practice..

As for the rest of the world-- they don't have a probem mistreating immigrants, bercause for the most part, they don't HAVE any (at least not in any significant numbers)....and so many times, the US is loudly criticized for the shortcomings in its 'civil rights' records, by places that HAVE no civil rights at all...When that happens, one must consider the source.
My post had nothing to do with how any country treats immigrants, just that one cannot judge all of "Europe" by one country alone. I think I made that pretty clear.

Europe is a continent, yes, but there is only ONE continent on this earth that is made up by a single country, namely Australia. Europe is an extremely diverse continent with 47 DIFFERENT countries. 47 COUNTRIES in who MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE live. Even in Sweden we have two ethnic groups: Swedes and Laplanders. In the Balcan, they have even more in each country- hence the problems.

Sweden is nothing like France. France is nothing like England. England is nothing like Finland. Finland is nothing like Poland. Poland is nothing like Italy. Italy is nothing like Rumania. Rumania is nothing like Germany, etc etc etc etc 47 times.
In contrary to:
Arkansa is similar to Tennessee. Tennessee is similar to Georgia. Georgia is similar to Idaho. Idaho is similar to Ohio, etc etc etc times 50.

Now, maybe one doesn't want to say that any state is similar to another- local pride is important- but it's the same people living in all of those states. Americans.
In Europe, we don't have that. We have Swedes living in Sweden, French living in France, Englishmen living in England, Finish people living in Finland, Polish living in Poland, etc etc etc times 47.

Now, add to the fact that European countries take in HUGE amounts of refugees and immigrants from other countries.

For example: the US has taken in, since the beginning of the Iraq war, the same amount of Iraqi refugies as Sweden does every month.
US: 5 years. Sweden: 5 years times 12.

Do you still want to argue that "Europe" is less diverse than the US?

How come that there are many, many threads on this forum alone, stating that Europe is going downhill due to too much immigration, and that we are so multicultural these days that we can't handle it in the long run? It's been called "Eurabia" many, many times, and we've been warned that we should close our borders.
How come Europe is only too multicultural and too diverse when one can use it to bash Europe, but then, as soon as people want to see Europe as one country, all of a sudden, we're practically ethnically homogeneous? What happens to diversity then?
It doesn't change over night. Europe either is or it isn't multicultural. Come here and we'll show you it is multicultural beyond your expectations.

I live in a village of 18 people. 10 of us are Swedes, the other 8 are immigrants.
In my class, a normal representative class, we are 26 people. 12 of us are Swedes, the other 14 are immigrants, all of them from outside of Europe.
Out of 6 people that I consider "close friends", only 1 is a Swede. The other 5 are immigrants from outside of Europe.
At my mother's job there are 8 people working. 5 of these are Swedes, the other 3 are immigrants.
I have a step-mother. I've had three, in fact. All three have been immigrants.
At my school, there is a whole class of 31, in which only 3 are Swedes. The rest are immigrants.
In my brother's class of 24, 12 of them are Swedes. The other 12 are immigrants.
When I walk down the streets of Stockholm, summer and winter, there are immigrants everywhere. In the shops, in the cafés, in the buses, etc.
All cabdrivers I have ridden with have been immigrants.
All busdrivers on my route are immigrants.

This is just my local area and Stockholm. And I live in one of the most "Swedish" regions in Sweden. The immigrants are in bigger numbers in other parts.

The US wants to brag with New York City as the most multicultural city in the world. It's not true. London is.

The thing is that the US is made up by Americans with the same kind of media, educational system, the same federal laws, etc.
The things is that Europe is made up by 47 different nationalities with different sorts of media, educational system, laws, etc.

The US and Europe cannot be compared. European countries cannot be treated as Amerians states. Or, shall we say: less diverse than American states. Yes, the US is made up by immigrants, but in today's society, so is European countries.
European countries may have their original people still living in their countries, but we take in so many refugees and immigrants that we are in no way ethnically homogeneous.

Americans want to see their states as different to other states in the US. Then please accept that the same goes for Europeans. We want to see our provinces or states as different to other provinces or states in our countries. Plus we ARE different from other countries on our continent.

If you disagree with this, then you can never argue again with someone claiming there is no American people. If there is indeed an American people, then all of the above is true.
There is an American people, but not a European. If something happens in one area in Italy once, it is absurd to even think about asking "is this the same all over Europe"?

The thread name is European arrogance, but I believe, and I know most of my fellow "Europeans" agree with me, that the ignorance is not ours when the ones accusing us of this cannot even tell the difference between a continent and a country. Please, we just want to be seen for what we are- different countries and nationalities.
I am sure the "Europe"-USA problem would diminish a great deal if we were only given the respect to be seen for what we are. Please. I appeal to your own national pride: wouldn't you be upset if someone referred to your country and people as "North American"?
Please. This is all about respect. We don't want to be called Europeans, because we are not. Just as you are not North Americans.

Please?
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Old 01-15-2008, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
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I can think of nothing more dissimilar than Rome and Gothenberg.

Except maybe Berkeley and Savannah.

Tack sĂĄ mycket!

Last edited by Yeledaf; 01-15-2008 at 04:19 PM..
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:18 PM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 992,995 times
Reputation: 344
Sweden, your post really shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the American model.
I don't really blame you- heck, 90% of AMERICANS really don't understand our model, but let me explain it to you, since a lot of what you said there is based on stuff that you really don't understand and are apparently, have completely wrong.

Here's a quick primer.

Once upon a time, we were in Europe. A bunch of bible thumpers decided that they were being persecuted by the government, so they left Europe and came here. Over time, the colony started to grow, bringing in more and more people (mainly, from Europe) but working for the benefit of their parent nation-state: England.

After a while, our colony got sick and tired of European rule from afar, so we decided to declare independence and kick them out (which we did)

When the mean, old, slave-owning white guys who were designing this strange new country were trying to decide on exactly how things should be run, there was a robust debate on how the nation itself should be structured. Ya see, back in those days, the American concept of "state" was roughly akin to what the concept of "nation" is in post-EU Europe. A Virginian considered himself a Virginian, first and foremost, then an American next (much like how you probably consider yourself a Swede first, then a European, etc, etc)

Our architects realized that founding this new nation with a European model- a fragmented mess of shtty little autonomous "states" with fences and borders- would be horrendously stifling to productivity, not to mention a hugely disintegrating force, so, they made us into a "Republic"- a "United States" where each individual American state (which are about as large as European countries) could make its own rules, but ensuring that they all operated under a common framework of Federalism.

Over time, as the immigrants from the various countries came and settled amongst each other, each area began to take on its own unique flavor, regardless of it's unique topography, no different than the European countries were unique in themselves. There were areas that saw lots of Irish, there were areas that saw lots of Italians, there were areas that saw lots of Scandanavians, there were areas that saw lots of Germans... While we don't have histories that go back millenia, as you do in Europe, these areas still evolved into distinctly ethnic enclaves, and differ between themselves much how nations in Europe differ. Their architecture was different, the sensibilities were different, the food was different, the languages were roughly the same, but the accents were often times WILDLY different... Opinions between these states got so far apart, at one time, we actually fought a war amongst each other and because of it, strengthened our central government (for better or worse- that's a debate for another time)

Now, while all this was going on, you folks over there in Europe kept fighting your miserable little wars and skirmishes, guarding your borders and overalll, spending most of your time keeping everything out, while at the same time keeping everything in.

After the two big 20th Century German wars (which we Americans bailed you out of), Europe slowly began to realize that if it were to ever begin to compete with the US (who around this time was turning the entire planet on it's ear with our innovation, production and absolutely unbelievable accrual of national wealth) it would have to come together to form a "United States of Europe", so to speak, and thusly, the EU was conceived and eventually born. Your currency was universalized, your borders became "theoretical" more than practical, and the continent united under a generally common framework of governance (achieving what we accomplished a couple hundred years prior- from the outset)

So, just as there's a difference between Stockholm and Berlin, there is a huge difference between San Francisco and New York- Between Chicago and Miami- between Dallas and Minneapolis, not only in terms of race and demography, but in terms of sensibilities, in terms of culture, in terms of almost everything, and even though we all speak a common language and use a common currency- because our model is superior to your model, which explains why you eventually adopted it- we're still probably the most diverse nation on the planet.

Last edited by LM1; 01-15-2008 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:31 PM
 
3,763 posts, read 12,510,384 times
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Wow. So what you're saying is that California is so different from Washington (state) that its like they are separate countries (ala France and Germany?)

Or that South Dakota and North Dakota are so dissimilar that a person from South Dakota has to actually learn "North Dakotan English dialect" to speak to a neighbor from the north? Or maybe they talk in a common third dialect to one another?

Or that Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky really have nothing in common with one another? Like manufacturing? or steel belt? or rust belt? or Corn? or Ethanol?

hmmm...

I am interested by your theory, tell me where I can buy your newsletter..?

Weird, cause when I moved from MI to N. Mexico - there really wasn't all that much different. True, a much more latino flair in the South, and I learned the concept of "manyana time", but honestly - it was really like being in the same COUNTRY - but with drier/hotter weather.

which is weird, 'cause when I was in Mexico - it was exactly like being in a different country entirely!!

Similalry with Canada - a totally different country. Different causes, different taxes, different systems of dealing with things.

Also England. Suprisingly England is not the same as Canada or America - yet all three share a language. WEIRD.

but I suppose you're right, I mean when Hoosiers talk about growing Corn, hunting, and voting Republican, I hardly even understand them. ITS AS THOUGH THEY WERE FROM A FOREIGN COUNTRY, because here in Ohio - people talk about raising cattle, hunting, and voting Republican!!! OHHHHHHH -- THE DIVERSITY!
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:39 PM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 992,995 times
Reputation: 344
[Mod edited]
Places in Europe also have common industries, common agriculture, common "shops and stores". The only big difference is language, although in most places in Europe, you couldn't throw a brick and not hit someone who speaks English.

Go from Switzerland to Germany to Austria... Or go from Portugal to Spain to the south of France. Or go from Norway to Sweden to Finland (well, maybe Finland is different, given that Fins are probably the most bizarre people on earth ) or Czechoslovakia to Poland to the Ukraine.

It's all, generally speaking, quite similar from region to region, even though the languages and some of the architecture may differ.
It's easy to undergeneralize Europe and overgeneralize the US but the basic sentiment is the same.

Last edited by TnHilltopper; 01-15-2008 at 06:07 PM.. Reason: Content
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briolat21 View Post
Wow. So what you're saying is that California is so different from Washington (state) that its like they are separate countries (ala France and Germany?)

Or that South Dakota and North Dakota are so dissimilar that a person from South Dakota has to actually learn "North Dakotan English dialect" to speak to a neighbor from the north? Or maybe they talk in a common third dialect to one another?

Or that Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky really have nothing in common with one another? Like manufacturing? or steel belt? or rust belt? or Corn? or Ethanol?

hmmm...

I am interested by your theory, tell me where I can buy your newsletter..?

Weird, cause when I moved from MI to N. Mexico - there really wasn't all that much different. True, a much more latino flair in the South, and I learned the concept of "manyana time", but honestly - it was really like being in the same COUNTRY - but with drier/hotter weather.

which is weird, 'cause when I was in Mexico - it was exactly like being in a different country entirely!!

Similalry with Canada - a totally different country. Different causes, different taxes, different systems of dealing with things.

Also England. Suprisingly England is not the same as Canada or America - yet all three share a language. WEIRD.

but I suppose you're right, I mean when Hoosiers talk about growing Corn, hunting, and voting Republican, I hardly even understand them. ITS AS THOUGH THEY WERE FROM A FOREIGN COUNTRY, because here in Ohio - people talk about raising cattle, hunting, and voting Republican!!! OHHHHHHH -- THE DIVERSITY!
Easy on the sarcasm there, Briolet. You're liable to rust your grommets.

Living in the northwest, but having lived in many parts of the US, I would argue that people in Seattle or Portland have much more in common -- culturally, politically, attitude- and interest-wise -- with, say, folks from Canada, than they they do with people from Hattiesburg, Mississippi or Brownsville, Texas.

In fact, any of America's coastal cities and urban areas -- with a few exceptions -- are much more internationalized and cosmopolitan than the cities in the interior.

The examples you cite are all of neighboring states or places of the same region. If you limit your description in that way, obviously you are going to find more similarities than differences. But in way, that helps to prove part of the point that LM1 was making -- that the US is so huge and diverse that not only do the states often differ from each other significantly; so do the regions: Rust Belt vs Sun Belt. Gulf Coast vs New England Coast. Midwest vs. Northwest. New England vs. Deep South. Etc.
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