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Old 01-13-2008, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Kentucky Bluegrass
28,888 posts, read 30,136,994 times
Reputation: 19062

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[quote=TnHilltopper;2501324]Well I would have to beg to differ. American's did not allow this to happen, they begged for it unwittingly.

Well then, they did allow it to happen....we became lazy, and voted, thinking we did our jobs, and paying others to run the nation...and when something went south...it was covered up, back in the earlier days...plus the rich and powerful ran this country from the beginning....right back to Biblical Days.

There is certainly a balance that must be struck between the needs, desires and responsibility of the individual to that of the needs, desires, and responsibilities of the collective or the responsibilities they may owe each other.

Yes, there is, but it is and has been slowly loosing ground....when you have a nation that is immoral and courrupt...so to will your people be, again, the word entitlement has become a religion. No one feels they owe anyone anything today, not even privocy. When out in public, there is no regard for the privet space of others, no regard about keeping your music turned down to a reasonable level....no regard for rules and laws...

I liken America today to that of a child given a diet of anything it wants. Does it eat a well balanced nutritious diet or does it eat happy meals, hershy bars, and coco puffs. Of course it goes for that which taste good or sweet, but in time adverse health effects occur. They become obese, out of balance and may even appear healthy but the mechanisms that drive them are rotted to the core.

yes indeed!

However America is not a child, even if it acts like one at times, and there are natural mechanisms in place to correct poor performance, out of balance wealth or rights distribution; these things residing in our Bill of Rights and Constitution.

Have you taken a look lately as to how over the past 20 years the Constitution has been slowly erroded to meet the needs of Corporations, special interest groups and politicians....? Or to justify an attorneys case...our laws today, can be worked around, with the right wording and enough money.


Fredrick Douglas once said that "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." and this is very much true. What slows the average Americans ability to see oppression or infringement to their natural rights as citizens is diversion. Diversion and the cloak of obfuscation through the use of a variety of means. A happy and fat people are much more unlikely to see or care to see when something is taken from them.

Could not agree with you more, adding...again, right under our noses...like slipping under an invisable fence....and remember, not all overweight people are happy, and you can be skinny, but still be thick as a brick, not to mention soooo lazy, then pass the buck.....again, individualism.

It is usually in times of plenty that the people are robbed of rights, liberties, or simply succumb to social decadence, because a man who has little or nothing will notice everything someone tries to take from him.

Well, we haven't been in times of plenty for many years...oh...yes, the big CEO's and Corporate leaders, yes, but at all costs...even quality...not caring about people loosing their pensions, health benefits....its all about number one. If you look back in history, the easiest way to take control was when times were hard...and people were desperate, looking for a leader to take them into prosperity. Most republicans won't admit this, but the one thing Clinton did for this country was get us out of debt. The country, that is, not the people.

I don't see America as dying in a physical sense, but it is plausible as everything begins to die once it has been born. You can even hear it in an election cycle from the candidates, as today they talk about change, in four years they may be talking about recovery or reform. So while we may be in troubled times indicating a potentially more ominous fate, I am not going to bet against us just yet. We have a long way to fall before we are finished

Yes, you are correct...but...we are, right now, and have always been in the cycle of 50 years, repeating cycles...and we are way to uneducated to work it out...therefore, the rich just get richer and use those underneath them....
We at one time were highly feared...our military was strong, big and preventitive maintenance was a practiced part of the maintenence of our equipment.

we were at one time highly skilled in technology and inventions...now, we are not.

manufacturing...man, you could quit a job one day and find another the same day...back in the 50's and 60's. We were beginning to build a great system...then, all our systems functioned...now, they are eroding more and more.

Crime back then was different, and not nearly the scale it is now...people grew up with respect, not excuses...everyone helped each other out...it was indeed a different world.

Yes, you always had crime, but not to the extent of today's world. People don't even think twice about speeding...or about saying their going to work from home and then take the day off....you didn't do such things.

My point is...we are indeed declining and will be overthrown in our grand children's lifetime...we are becoming a diverse nation, but the same rules do not apply to everyone, which will one day be our demise.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:41 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,713,193 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
so, I've been contemplating on the many huge companies who are outsourcing...watching the economy, the stock market, and illegal immigration. Michigan is a state in it's own right, now hugely dealing with unemployment....Politicians refuse to recognize or talk about the real issues, crime, illegal immigration...why, because illegals can vote and largely represent the Democratic party.

I've been concerned while wondering, what will America be like in the next 10 - 20 years. People are though, finally starting to come together and agree, "something is a miss"

I challenge you, to read these articles and contemplate for yourselves....

What is Happening to America?- Article by Frosty Wooldridge - speaker, author, environmentalist, patriot, bicyclist; Frosty promotes open discussion of environmental and U.S. national sustainability issues, and reduction of immigration to replacement


What Is Happening to America's Gold? (http://www.fgmr.com/whatgold.htm - broken link)


What’s Happening To America? by by Ken Hughes

AYPF Forum Brief - What's Really Happening with America's Out-of-School Youth? (http://www.aypf.org/forumbriefs/1997/fb041897.htm - broken link)

Effects Of Outsourcing (http://www.cyfuture.com/effects-of-outsourcing.htm - broken link)

Offshore outsourcing affects American workers | WTN

What's Wrong with Our Schools? | What's Homeschooling? (http://www.goodbyecitylife.com/homeschool/whatswrong.htm - broken link)

Children for sale - Dateline NBC - MSNBC.com

NPR : Stem Cell Research: Science and the Future

yes, these compositions are one man's opinion, but what if...
they are right?

Why is this all happening? Did you realize it was happening...

without getting into a political debate of who is right or wrong...I want to stress that there is not a candidate running for the Presidency, that has brought these issues to the table for discussion.

who is voting for Hilary simply because she is a woman?
Who is voting for another simply b/c they want one issue to win...i.e. abortion
but who is asking these people, what they intend to do to bring back America...stop the crime...educate our kids and reinstate support financially and mentally right here in America....?

When will the greed stop...when we are all out of work?

We rely so much on foreign products what would happen if they'd sanction us?

I tell you truly, there are issues concerning America which we have to arm ourselves with education so we can stress fighting to get America Back.

Great post and I will say when will American's get up off their fat butts and take our country back before it's to late...Our goverment is an outrage, all of them...
Carrie
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:26 PM
 
Location: America
6,993 posts, read 17,321,348 times
Reputation: 2093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
Great post and I will say when will American's get up off their fat butts and take our country back before it's to late...Our goverment is an outrage, all of them...
Carrie
when they can't afford plasma TVs and hummers anymore?
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
1,499 posts, read 5,086,345 times
Reputation: 1099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
when they can't afford plasma TVs and hummers anymore?
People already can't afford plasma TV's and Hummers - they buy them on credit!!! Someday, the whole house of cards will collapse.
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:44 PM
 
Location: America
6,993 posts, read 17,321,348 times
Reputation: 2093
OhioNative

thats pretty much what I was getting at
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:03 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes FL and NH.
4,510 posts, read 6,751,553 times
Reputation: 5903
As a conservative who admires Teddy Roosevelt's contributions to America, I believe a lot of the problems we are facing today are the result of the continuous spread of suburban sprawl and the dismantling of communities.

People disconnected and isolated in their own fortresses, largely living in their cars and within the walls of their homes, have substituted their direct contact with the world and people around them with what they observe on television or read while surfing the Internet.

The information they receive is far from objective as journalists weave stories mixed with facts, titillating tidbits, and anxiety-generating headlines with the goal of capturing the viewer's attention to prevent them from turning to another channel or googling another topic.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Kentucky Bluegrass
28,888 posts, read 30,136,994 times
Reputation: 19062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
As a conservative who admires Teddy Roosevelt's contributions to America, I believe a lot of the problems we are facing today are the result of the continuous spread of suburban sprawl and the dismantling of communities.

People disconnected and isolated in their own fortresses, largely living in their cars and within the walls of their homes, have substituted their direct contact with the world and people around them with what they observe on television or read while surfing the Internet.

The information they receive is far from objective as journalists weave stories mixed with facts, titillating tidbits, and anxiety-generating headlines with the goal of capturing the viewer's attention to prevent them from turning to another channel or googling another topic.

I understand what you are saying, as you bring a resonable snopsis to the table, and yes, I'd have to agree, but in the same, it is still no excuse...If I, a mere secretary can see what is happening....why can't anyone else. And what about all those people out there who say.....ewwwww, you naysayers and mock you b/c you bring this out in the open....it is not just a concern, it is happening.

Just to give you an idea....my aunt died b/c of illegal immigration.....

She lived in Calif. She became ill, 3 major hospitals had shut down, b/c they were swamped with illegals coming in for medical care and not paying....hospitals went broke. So, the alternative was, my aunt went to some clinic that was set up and they started giving her huge hallucnegentics....without doing an MRI....she grew worse, and told this incompetent doctor so, and when she questioned his diagnose, he said, listen here lady, if you don't like this, we'll put you in a place where you'll have no other alternative then to listen. She still got worse and worse, and then, her sons, who lived in other states got involved and drove her to another reputable hospital. Guess what, it was to late...it was a brain tumore...cancerous and now, no longer opperable....too late...she died 3 weeks later.

This is just one example of how our U.S. of America is declining, not to mention, we are broke, big time.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:49 AM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,158,628 times
Reputation: 3696
[quote=cremebrulee;2501975]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Well I would have to beg to differ. American's did not allow this to happen, they begged for it unwittingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Well then, they did allow it to happen....we became lazy, and voted, thinking we did our jobs, and paying others to run the nation...and when something went south...it was covered up, back in the earlier days...plus the rich and powerful ran this country from the beginning....right back to Biblical Days.
If things were better in the "old days" yet the rich and powerful controlled everything back then as well, what constitutes the difference, bad rich and powerful people or a lazy constituency? By your wording, it is the peoples fault, not the rich and powerful and if that is the case, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
There is certainly a balance that must be struck between the needs, desires and responsibility of the individual to that of the needs, desires, and responsibilities of the collective or the responsibilities they may owe each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Yes, there is, but it is and has been slowly loosing ground....when you have a nation that is immoral and courrupt...so to will your people be, again, the word entitlement has become a religion. No one feels they owe anyone anything today, not even privocy. When out in public, there is no regard for the privet space of others, no regard about keeping your music turned down to a reasonable level....no regard for rules and laws...
Immoral and corrupt, well, welcome to humanity. Show me a society that has lived upon planet earth that was not subject to corruption and immorality. These things you mention as wrong, I agree, but what is needed to instill a regard for the rule of law and the rule of a decent civil society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
I liken America today to that of a child given a diet of anything it wants. Does it eat a well balanced nutritious diet or does it eat happy meals, hershy bars, and coco puffs. Of course it goes for that which taste good or sweet, but in time adverse health effects occur. They become obese, out of balance and may even appear healthy but the mechanisms that drive them are rotted to the core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
yes indeed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
However America is not a child, even if it acts like one at times, and there are natural mechanisms in place to correct poor performance, out of balance wealth or rights distribution; these things residing in our Bill of Rights and Constitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Have you taken a look lately as to how over the past 20 years the Constitution has been slowly erroded to meet the needs of Corporations, special interest groups and politicians....? Or to justify an attorneys case...our laws today, can be worked around, with the right wording and enough money.
Yes the individual liberties have been suffered from erosion but by the very structure of our Constitution, it serves as a means to balance and push back government intrusion into the personal liberties of the individual and to the collective. There have been many times in our nations history in which the government has seized or attempted to gain more power and influence over the people, but the people still have the right to exert their influence over the government that works on their behalf, if they are so inclined to do so. Whether they will or not is usually dependent upon the sentiments of the people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Fredrick Douglas once said that "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." and this is very much true. What slows the average Americans ability to see oppression or infringement to their natural rights as citizens is diversion. Diversion and the cloak of obfuscation through the use of a variety of means. A happy and fat people are much more unlikely to see or care to see when something is taken from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Could not agree with you more, adding...again, right under our noses...like slipping under an invisable fence....and remember, not all overweight people are happy, and you can be skinny, but still be thick as a brick, not to mention soooo lazy, then pass the buck.....again, individualism.
My usage of the term "fat" was merely a metaphor for a people who have more than possessions than is required to even be "comfortable". I don't understand you use of the word, "individualism" or the context in which you are using it, if you could explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
It is usually in times of plenty that the people are robbed of rights, liberties, or simply succumb to social decadence, because a man who has little or nothing will notice everything someone tries to take from him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Well, we haven't been in times of plenty for many years...oh...yes, the big CEO's and Corporate leaders, yes, but at all costs...even quality...not caring about people loosing their pensions, health benefits....its all about number one. If you look back in history, the easiest way to take control was when times were hard...and people were desperate, looking for a leader to take them into prosperity. Most republicans won't admit this, but the one thing Clinton did for this country was get us out of debt. The country, that is, not the people.
I disagree, and only have to look around to see, "times of plenty". I have lived in places such as Central and South America, I have seen true poverty on a wide scale. Americans have it damn good, even when they think they have it tough. To give you an idea, Scientific American magazine did a piece that showed that if the entire rest of the world were to live at the standard of living as the average American, it would require the resources of 4 more planet earths. We are the largest and most voracious consuming creatures to ever inhabit this planet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
I don't see America as dying in a physical sense, but it is plausible as everything begins to die once it has been born. You can even hear it in an election cycle from the candidates, as today they talk about change, in four years they may be talking about recovery or reform. So while we may be in troubled times indicating a potentially more ominous fate, I am not going to bet against us just yet. We have a long way to fall before we are finished
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Yes, you are correct...but...we are, right now, and have always been in the cycle of 50 years, repeating cycles...and we are way to uneducated to work it out...therefore, the rich just get richer and use those underneath them....
We at one time were highly feared...our military was strong, big and preventitive maintenance was a practiced part of the maintenence of our equipment.

Yes, all things are cyclical in nature. Even empires and nations. They rise, they peak, then they fall. To what degree they do this is dependent upon how far they rise and how far they fall, both in part determinant upon the awareness of the population.

As to being feared, we are, in fact globally, we are the most feared people on the planet. We have technology and the means to end all life and a guy with his finger on the button who can't articulate multi-syllable words, let alone string together a sentence. We have an administration that truly believes it has some ordained right to create or change the world in a manner it sees fit, no matter the consequences. That is indeed a real fear.

we were at one time highly skilled in technology and inventions...now, we are not.

manufacturing...man, you could quit a job one day and find another the same day...back in the 50's and 60's. We were beginning to build a great system...then, all our systems functioned...now, they are eroding more and more.

Crime back then was different, and not nearly the scale it is now...people grew up with respect, not excuses...everyone helped each other out...it was indeed a different world.

Yes, you always had crime, but not to the extent of today's world. People don't even think twice about speeding...or about saying their going to work from home and then take the day off....you didn't do such things.

My point is...we are indeed declining and will be overthrown in our grand children's lifetime...we are becoming a diverse nation, but the same rules do not apply to everyone, which will one day be our demise.
America certainly has problems and issues it needs to resolve, it always has and so does every other nation. When we measure the world from perfection down instead of chaos up, we set a standard that can never be reached. In the meantime, there is a balance and happy medium which can be achieved.

I do not see the doom and gloom or inevitability for utter demise than some do. It is in troubling and adverse times in which men rise to the occasion and are forced to consider things they normally would not. This in my opinion is a good thing. Even if America falters and stumbles or ends up in harsh economic times, it will survive. As mentioned earlier, nearly all things are cyclical and from our fall we will once again learn humility, frugality, and to tread with caution.
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:59 PM
ck9
 
Location: a van down by the river
71 posts, read 123,832 times
Reputation: 29
ive always wondered how far outsourcing and illegal labour can go. if everyone is poor who can afford to buy the products? there must be a delicate balance yet to be reached
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Kentucky Bluegrass
28,888 posts, read 30,136,994 times
Reputation: 19062
Quote:
Originally Posted by ck9 View Post
ive always wondered how far outsourcing and illegal labour can go. if everyone is poor who can afford to buy the products? there must be a delicate balance yet to be reached
I've heard the big guys who hire all the illegals put them all up in big homes....why not? It still pays them again and again, to do so....
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