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Old 01-16-2008, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
110 posts, read 322,224 times
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What I have a difficult time comprehending, and maybe somebody can help me out, is how come the president can make the lofty claims that the economy is strong and everything is "peachy keen" here while we have all of our current problems. Is it only strong for him and all of his rich cronies? I'm not looking to turn this into an anti-Bush thread, I just have no idea what "America" he's living in.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
1,499 posts, read 5,086,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincolnian View Post
LOL! As a teacher, I can attest that the majority of state and federal funding and attention is targeted to bring the lowest achievers up to a minimal level of proficiency. Additionally, many schools are moving away from leveling, even in mathematics, with the goal of holding all students to the same standards. I am concerned that the PC closing of the achievement gap is coming at the expense of the highest achievers. The belief that the higher achievers will act as positive role models and bring up the lower achievers has not been my experience or that of what I have witnessed professionally over the past 14 years.

To expect that every student will take Algebra II, including Trig, and be proficient, is great as an ideal but not realistic.
Yeah, in Georgia they just did away with the vocational track diploma. What an absolutely stupid idea!!! Some people are just not meant to go to college, or have no interest. Wouldn't it be better to train them to be a plumber or whatever, provide a modicum of instruction in basic reading and writing proficiency, throw in a little US history to make sure they are well rounded, and send them on their way to make a good living. This is just like that day care center commerical that says "your child's potential is unlimited." Sorry, but it's not. Some kids just aren't going to master Algebra. This will do nothing but reduce HS graduation rates, to the detriment of us all.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:32 PM
Noc
 
1,435 posts, read 2,063,862 times
Reputation: 614
Quote:
Originally Posted by azsundevil99 View Post
What I have a difficult time comprehending, and maybe somebody can help me out, is how come the president can make the lofty claims that the economy is strong and everything is "peachy keen" here while we have all of our current problems. Is it only strong for him and all of his rich cronies? I'm not looking to turn this into an anti-Bush thread, I just have no idea what "America" he's living in.
Denial! If he came out and said this economy was F'ed up that would solidify everyones fears that we are doomed. Although we know what's looming or already hear (recession). If it goes unsaid by him long enough by the time he says it or it's proven the recession would have come and gone. Many people say the recession is coming some say it's already here.

I don't think it would help the election for the Reps if a recession was admitted under this current administrations watch.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Kentucky Bluegrass
28,888 posts, read 30,142,652 times
Reputation: 19062
[quote=Wild Style;2530492]creme

This is where sociology, psychology and economics come into play. Just looking at numbers doesn't say much. This subject covers all three sciences I named (sociology, psychology and economics) and one must have some form of understanding regarding all of them to fully appreciate the situation. Example, lets say a certain set of minorities are in jails in higher numbers than other groups. You must then ask yourself, what is the social economic situation in their community. What factors are at play that bought this about. Are these people afforded EVERY opportunity that other groups are afforded?

I thought that, that is exactly what I was reinterating...without the use of sociology, psychology and economics??????


To give a racial connotation to this issue, is to ignore ALL the facts.

It was not a racial connotation, it was fact....again, look up how many are in prisons and then look up what races are in there....and now consider the sociolgical, physchological and economical barriers they've been bombared with....nothing about that comment of mine was racist, but was fact....so now, that we have that knowledge, we can maybe go ahead and remedy some of the problem, which will help to eleviate crime and/or deter it....





I have worked as a teacher for a short time and I assure you, all things are NOT equal across the board in schools. Some schools may not have enough books for all their students because of under funding. the quality of teachers may be poorer. The level of programs may be below average. Then you have to look at things like, are both parents in the house? if they are both in the house, are they working more so than spending time with their kids? if they have to work more, then why is that?

Well, perhaps I didn't get it out there as well as you have, but I believe again, this is what I was trying to say...adding, in addition....why do these problems exist...why do you think there aer shortages of books, why aren't the parents there, why are there different levels of funding programs....b/c I believe a lot of our problems stem from a lack of education, something is going south here....and it is parents and schools combined.




All this comes into play in these sorts of conversations. Again, education or the lack there of is what makes people see a racial connotation, as opposed to a social economic problem.

If we don't recognize that there is a race lacking, then how can we help that race, no matter what or who they are....why does that matter, lets help them and stop with the racist finger pointing. This is exactly what will be our demise and is already. This HAS to be recognized and discussed....


If a person were to travel abroad, you will see that the same things seen in a particular group of minorities in America can be seen in other groups of minorities in other countries.

This is not another country, this is America which does not excuse behavior or a lack there of...


You will also notice that both groups are at a social economic disadvantage as opposed to the greater society.

As they are here...so, what do we do to fix it????


To look from the outside in and pretend to understand fully the subject matter or to even think you can form a meaningful opinion of the matter is really to mislead ones self. But again, its this sort of conclusion that people come to that helps to divide this country.

I am not trying to divide the country..your interruting race as a racist comment, and it is not...



It helps to erode the power of the people in America.

What erodes the power of the people is a lack of knowledge...

Racisum will always exist I'm sorry to say, but you've got to see what I'm saying here...if you don't then we can't fix it...




I mean to say, if people were to say this is not a Black, Latino or Martian issue. This is a American issue and we ALL must tackle it, then we could really see change in this country.

I am saying this is an American Issue, but unfortunately the truth is the Blacks are suffering and it's time we stop this and get them going on the right track...and if you don't believe me, please be my guest, go teach in Philly and talk to all those teachers....

this is a perfect example of how people are so touching and fear saying anything for being acused of being politically incorrect...and it's not, it's a statement of fact of a problem that exists in America that we need to fix, to help them....and I can't make myself any clearer then that, I'm sorry.

Your misunderstanding the whole point, I think??????

Creme
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:41 PM
 
1,006 posts, read 1,552,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioNative View Post
Yeah, in Georgia they just did away with the vocational track diploma. What an absolutely stupid idea!!! Some people are just not meant to go to college, or have no interest. Wouldn't it be better to train them to be a plumber or whatever, provide a modicum of instruction in basic reading and writing proficiency, throw in a little US history to make sure they are well rounded, and send them on their way to make a good living. This is just like that day care center commerical that says "your child's potential is unlimited." Sorry, but it's not. Some kids just aren't going to master Algebra. This will do nothing but reduce HS graduation rates, to the detriment of us all.
I agree. Many talented people "work with their hands" (which, by the way, also requires intelligence, but our society also downs this type of work, skill and intelligence often)....and to limit these talented people to struggling with Alg 2/Trig, etc. is a ticket to low self esteem, possible failure in school, and limiting their actual potential. How many artists can do Trig? Musicians? Craftsmen/women of all the trades, do (or should, or WANT to, or are MEANT to) they all master

America was not built by economists and accountants......
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:44 PM
 
1,006 posts, read 1,552,931 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by azsundevil99 View Post
What I have a difficult time comprehending, and maybe somebody can help me out, is how come the president can make the lofty claims that the economy is strong and everything is "peachy keen" here while we have all of our current problems. Is it only strong for him and all of his rich cronies? I'm not looking to turn this into an anti-Bush thread, I just have no idea what "America" he's living in.
The "American" strata based on $$, going to Yale as a legacy, Daddy's money and connections, and nepotism. It's poisoned our society. It makes "hard work pays off" a joke.

Flip side: ck out scholarship/financial aid recipients at most universities.....no child left behind....but mine......
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBurgess View Post
The "American" strata based on $$, going to Yale as a legacy, Daddy's money and connections, and nepotism. It's poisoned our society. It makes "hard work pays off" a joke.
I must disagree here. Bush may be an insensitive silver-spooner, but the American dream of social mobility is alive and well. For one example, take a look at second-generation immigrants who started out as dishwashers, or convenience store workers, and who are now sending their kids to Yale -- and not via legacy. It's still possible to rise through hard work, but the nature of the work has changed, and you have to be persistent to find the cracks in the wall. Nobody ever said it would be easy. All we've ever been promised as citizens is that it would be possible.

Quote:
Flip side: ck out scholarship/financial aid recipients at most universities.....no child left behind....but mine......
The average discount rate at US universities approaches 50%. Very few families pay the "sticker price." "No child left behind" refers to elementary and public secondary school reforms, instituted on the state level, and is not relevant to a discussion of teritary education.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:09 PM
 
1,006 posts, read 1,552,931 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I must disagree here. Bush may be an insensitive silver-spooner, but the American dream of social mobility is alive and well. For one example, take a look at second-generation immigrants who started out as dishwashers, or convenience store workers, and who are now sending their kids to Yale -- and not via legacy. It's still possible to rise through hard work, but the nature of the work has changed, and you have to be persistent to find the cracks in the wall. Nobody ever said it would be easy. All we've ever been promised as citizens is that it would be possible.



The average discount rate at US universities approaches 50%. Very few families pay the "sticker price." "No child left behind" refers to elementary and public secondary school reforms, instituted on the state level, and is not relevant to a discussion of teritary education.
Paragraph 1: Not in all cases. The immigrants in our area know how to work the system and go to college on scholarships. Not that I feel a large uneducated bulge of the population is a good thing, I don't. There is a disconnect in "equality" here for the white middle class.....in high immigration areas, the concentration of ESL's is so huge at the public schools, that even an "average" student often can't get a decent education. The curriculum is slowed down (euphemism), adjusted.....good for them, bad for your child if he or she does not HAVE that need....and if you don't home school or go private, you're stuck. It's a huge problem in these areas.

Paragraph 2: I am aware of the " NCLB" literal meaning. We deal in my area with issues all the time of the pecking order of who is left behind. Trust me, it's a colluqial term around these parts. It's more like, "get in line....but pay the taxes for everyone.....".

Bottom line: the smart kids pay, if not in $$, in quality of academic; so do the LD's.

My youngest child: this child would be screwed going thru the in place public system here. No, there would not be AP American H istory sophomore year.

Second chlid (older): Our system was so loaded up with ESL's, that I had to send this child to $$ private school to address her bona fide LD. The pub school counselor told me directly, "with the white kids, we see if they pass and if they do not, then we might provide a tutor." ARE YOU NUTS? I had complete LD testing from a certified outside agency. Counselor direct quote, "Our budget is nil for LD; it's all used up for the ESL situation. SORRY." Solution: we did a $ private and my child is now a junior in college with a "regular" major and two minors. Hard work pays off......and if we hadn't been able to afford the private AT THAT TIME (now, forget it).....6th grade for two years?

Uh, no break on the property taxes but some minimal laff riot in comparison to the cost of education outside public's.

My immigrant grandparents came with the proverbial dime in the pocket and ended up owning their own business; I get it. They did NOT work the system...there wasn't one to work EXCEPT the hard work/pays off, etc....

In urban areas, the "abuses" and "finagling" of the system, frequently by immigrants, are....astounding. Except WE OURSELVES set up the system, so in their position, any parent would do the same. In other areas, maybe it's different. It's quite competitive here, and it is not in a healthy way.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBurgess View Post
Paragraph 1: Not in all cases. The immigrants in our area know how to work the system and go to college on scholarships.
Learning "how to work the system" is part of working hard to get ahead.

Quote:
Not that I feel a large uneducated bulge of the population is a good thing, I don't. There is a disconnect in "equality" here for the white middle class.....in high immigration areas, the concentration of ESL's is so huge at the public schools, that even an "average" student often can't get a decent education. The curriculum is slowed down (euphemism), adjusted.....good for them, bad for your child if he or she does not HAVE that need....and if you don't home school or go private, you're stuck. It's a huge problem in these areas.
Normally bright chidren, encouraged and motivated by concerned parents, can succeed in any environment. Neither of my parents graduated from high school, but they made damn sure that I had college on my radar from day one.

Quote:
Paragraph 2: I am aware of the " NCLB" literal meaning. We deal in my area with issues all the time of the pecking order of who is left behind. Trust me, it's a colluqial term around these parts. It's more like, "get in line....but pay the taxes for everyone.....".

Bottom line: the smart kids pay, if not in $$, in quality of academic; so do the LD's.

My youngest child: this child would be screwed going thru the in place public system here. No, there would not be AP American H istory sophomore year.

Second chlid (older): Our system was so loaded up with ESL's, that I had to send this child to $$ private school to address her bona fide LD. The pub school counselor told me directly, "with the white kids, we see if they pass and if they do not, then we might provide a tutor." ARE YOU NUTS? I had complete LD testing from a certified outside agency. Counselor direct quote, "Our budget is nil for LD; it's all used up for the ESL situation. SORRY." Solution: we did a $ private and my child is now a junior in college with a "regular" major and two minors. Hard work pays off......and if we hadn't been able to afford the private AT THAT TIME (now, forget it).....6th grade for two years?
So you made a sacrifice and your child succeeded. What's your beef?

Quote:
Uh, no break on the property taxes but some minimal laff riot in comparison to the cost of education outside public's.

My immigrant grandparents came with the proverbial dime in the pocket and ended up owning their own business; I get it. They did NOT work the system...there wasn't one to work EXCEPT the hard work/pays off, etc....

In urban areas, the "abuses" and "finagling" of the system, frequently by immigrants, are....astounding. Except WE OURSELVES set up the system, so in their position, any parent would do the same. In other areas, maybe it's different. It's quite competitive here, and it is not in a healthy way.
Not sure of your point here. Have you considered that the "system", as you put it, has changed? How would you like it changed back?
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:36 PM
 
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1. I am not talking about "working the system" as it is meant to be worked. I am talking cheating. If this country was built on finagling and working the system, expect more Enron's.

2. Watch the movie "Crash." Real life big city.

3. Back to what "old system?"

4. Puhleeze that Trudy and Floyd can save and scrimp to send Johnny to college. I know parents who are borrowed to the hilt to send their child to college, 2nd mortgages, etc. Very few can "scrape" and save the amount required by colleges today.....possibly a relatively reasonable State U, but in some states (Pa., though I do not live there) the State U in-state tuition (I am ont saying UP is not worth it, quite the contrary) is out of reach.

The borrowed to the hilt kids are at orientation/classes right next to scholarship recipients with lower test scores, lower skills, etc......who fit the "profile" du jour.....so what will our work force turn into after this? College professors are complaining about the student body's ill preparedness for college...read the NY Times. Prep classes, dumbing down the curriculum. This is why Harvard (the real reason) is now "adjusting" their financial aid criteria....they had only H. Throckmorton Thurgood's kid with the building named after him and kids on TOTAL stipend (they call it "student on a budget"....I know a family who sent their daughter there on this program....she was nice, good grades......Harvard material???? The prof's are tired of having no voice in this but having to deal with the erosion of student body academic preparedness.....and not just at Harvard, also at the State U level schools.

There is a new reality at the top universities and schools. Only the very wealthy or connected or those (immigrant, exchange student, etc.) who fit the profile attend. VERY few white middle class (can't afford), even blowout test scores/grades/activities are attending. Even the Hispanic immigrants are feeling the heat at the college level, a situation which just recently changed for them also.

And I know parents who literally could not send their child.....fell between the $$ formulaic cracks.

America isn't a candy store, is it?
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