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Libertarians: why has there never been a libertarian-based nation?
Because libertarianism is essentially a philosophy, rather than a prescription for governance; libertarians don't seek to enforce their own desires by harnessing the power to coerce vested in a nation-state; they just want the basic human rights to life, liberty and property (their own -- not somebody else's) protected, rather than confiscated in the name of some delusion of "greater common good".
It was a guy named Marx who saw it the other way, and one named Lenin who first proposed an alliance between that morally bankrupt ideology and the pursuit of absolute power. The bodies have been piling up ever since.
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Last edited by 2nd trick op; 03-17-2015 at 06:22 PM..
It was the government that enforced slavery, didn't allow women to vote, etc. but they took credit for "solving" this problem when it became illegal. Government didn't actually step in and fix anything, they just stopped enforcing these unequal laws. Making slavery illegal, for example, was sort of redundant because there was nobody capturing and returning runaway slaves anymore (among other reasons...it just wasn't sustainable without the state enforcing it.
Well if they got out of the states that thought it was right to keep slavery entact, yes. If they didn't they would be returned to the state.
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If we need the law to tell us right from wrong, that's pretty sad. The only thing keeping you and I from murdering, stealing, committing fraud, etc. is politicians threatening us if we disobey? I could go on about this but I'm short on time at the moment...I'll just say that people don't need one set of laws that everyone must follow. Would you argue for one world government? We're stuck in this mindset that without the government telling us what we can and can't do, people would act like stupid animals and cause mayhem. The majority will not abandon their own morals, and there are many ways they can organize against the tiny percentage of sociopaths who would try to do harm to everyone else.
I agree but the issue remains that there would make it much more easier for people to do things. Think about it, getting caught, is a deterrent from many crimes. People don't drink and drive for instance because of fear of DWI.
Libertarians: why has there never been a libertarian-based nation?
Because libertarianism is essentially a philosophy, rather than a prescription for governance; libertarians don't seek to enforce their own desires by harnessing the power to coerce vested in a nation state; they just want the basic human rights to life, liberty and property (their own -- not somebody else's) protected, rather than confiscated in the name of some delusion of "greater common good".
It was a guy named Marx who saw it the other way, and one named Lenin who first proposed an alliance between that morally bankrupt ideology and the pursuit of absolute power. The bodies have bee piling up ever since.
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The French during the French Revolution was somewhat libertarian, that is until Napoleon took over as military dictator. As I've said, we can take bits and pieces from ideology but to say that we would be doing great under any ideology entirely is wrong also.
And as for your silly 'history lesson'... fact is that the Bill of Rights basically applied only to white people.
Who were a significant majority of the population, not a small minority as you originally stated.
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Originally Posted by turkey-head
Women couldn't vote.
True, but without taking anything away from the importance of the right to vote, this is not codified in the Bill of Rights, and I don't consider it a fundamental human right. In fact, I might make the argument that a fundamental human right is the right to live without a government since millennia of history shows a poor record of governments avoiding becoming tyrannical in one form or another. Enough about anarchy though, this is a discussion about libertarianism ...
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Originally Posted by turkey-head
In many cases only property owners could vote.
This was true for a time, but by the early 1800's states began eliminating this requirement.
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Originally Posted by turkey-head
I think the end result of a Libertarian regime WOULD in fact be close to what I just described... where only a wealthy minority have ANY power at all, and where humans are effectively slaves.
This indicates a significant lack of understanding of key libertarian principles. First, it's not anarchy, so there are laws that are enforced. Second, the fundamental principle underlying libertarian thought is non-aggression towards other humans, so it is completely antithetical to slavery or any form of oppression of some humans by others.
The libertarian movement is undeniably influential, especially in the US, but also worldwide. Milton Friedman, who self-identified as libertarian, was perhaps the most influential economist of the 20th century. The libertarian Cato institute has been ranked as one of the top 10 most influential US think tanks.
Yet despite the popularity and influence, I think it's safe to say that not one of 196 nations in existence is remotely close to being libertarian.
It's a very recent ideology in the West.
You could look to African tribal groups in the Congo and Niger River Basins prior to European Colonization. A good introductory source that also functions as a quasi-ethnograph would be Achebe's Things Fall Apart. You get a good look at their economic system, property rights, social security, crime and justice and how they handled external matters, such as inter- and intra- tribal conflicts with other villages (how the democratic process works for foreign policy matters). While their social system was largely patriarchal, their religious system was matriarchal.
They were organized in villages of 2,000 to 7,000 people with no government. Pure democracy. Sure, there were tribal leaders, even kings, but they did not interfere in the day-to-day affairs of the villages.
I don't know who was weirded out more, the Brits or the British missionaries. The French were actually amused by it. I don't know what Belgians or Italians thought.
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Originally Posted by wutitiz
From what I've read, Hong Kong may have been closest until it was ceded back to Red China by the Brits.
Macau.
It's a former Portuguese Colony near Kowloon.
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Originally Posted by T0103E
So...
1. There hasn't been a libertarian state because (a) they don't want a state in the first place,..
Point well taken.
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Originally Posted by T0103E
... and (b) for a stateless society to exist, the majority needs to believe that the initiation of force is wrong, even for government (similar to how the paradigm shifted in our society when the majority accepted that slavery was immoral).
From your view then, Libertarianism is more of a philosophy, rather than a political system.
I agree. Conservatism is not a political system, either.
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Originally Posted by urbanlife78
Libertarian is something that looks good on paper, but doesn't work in reality.
So where have all the Utopias gone?
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Originally Posted by urbanlife78
So tell me, what country is run by libertarians? You know, if that form of government would work so well, it should exist somewhere.
It isn't a form of government.
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Originally Posted by bUU
Humanity actually started out with libertarian government 6500+ years ago.
Kings are Libertarian......got it.
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Originally Posted by wutitiz
4485 BC (6500 years ago) was prior to the invention of writing.
Writing existed at least as early as 14,000 BCE.
In Jericho, at the 7,500 BCE level (about 9,000 years ago) you can see frescoes painted on the walls using the Crab motif. That should come as no surprise, since that was the Age of Cancer (followed by the Age of Gemini, Age of Taurus, Age of Aries, Age of Pisces, and soon the Age of Aquarius).
There's also pictographs which are believed ot be the forerunner of Sumerian pictographs (which led to the Akkadian cuneiform system circa 3,000 BCE and then quite possibly Eblaite was a bridge between "east" and "west").
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Originally Posted by wutitiz
How do you know that there was libertarian government in those days?
He doesn't. It's typical uBB nonsense.
Libertarianism does not employ genetics, but Sumerians did...
Where have all what utopias gone? Though you do address another point, Libertarianism isn't a form of government, nor is it able to govern a country. That is why it is laughable when people think we need to be more of a libertarian country because there is no such thing as that. That would require the removal of government and would make that country a hot bed for other groups that could easily take control of the land and the people on it that think that somehow their "individualism" will somehow triumph.
Where have all what utopias gone? Though you do address another point, Libertarianism isn't a form of government, nor is it able to govern a country. That is why it is laughable when people think we need to be more of a libertarian country because there is no such thing as that. That would require the removal of government and would make that country a hot bed for other groups that could easily take control of the land and the people on it that think that somehow their "individualism" will somehow triumph.
Once again, liberals open up mouth and insert foot saying something dumb.
Once again, liberals open up mouth and insert foot saying something dumb.
Thats ANARCHY.. not libertarian
Oh I am well aware, they seem to both be very similar in the sense that libertarians want a country to be all about individualism, but still want to be protected by the collectivism of a government to protect them from those that would want anarchy and would use no government to take advantage of those libertarians.
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