Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
First of all I have read people comparing blacks historical struggles with those of homosexuals.
More importantly, blacks were treated as less than human beings during certain parts of our history.
So while homosexuals have been discriminated against because of their aberrant sexual behavior, that is a far cry from being treated like an animal.
Heck the Irish in this country have been treated worse than homosexuals, as they also were brought over as slaves, indentured servants, and treated like animals.
The bottom line is that you do not get to compare your groups struggles based on your behavior, vs. those who were born a certain ethnicity and suffered because of it.
Unlike blacks, homosexuals had a choice of remaining celibate for example, and therefore would not have been subjected to poor treatment. Blacks had no such choice.
Suppose I told you you had to be celibate. How would like that?
Furthermore, people who "act gay" (whether they're gay or not) have been attacked, murdered, fired from jobs, etc.
You and the OP act as though homosexuality is something that you choose, like a shirt. It is not. All the evidence indicates that you are born gay. And of course, to be born at all, you have to have straight parents. So if any blame is to be given, it should be given to straights whose reproductive activity is "aberrant", to use your own word.
So gays aren't going anywhere. Straights will keep producing them. If you want to get rid of gays, straights can do that by never having sex. And maybe they should anyway. The world is overpopulated, and that's the fault of straights, not gays.
Some gays can "pass" as straight and, if they're quiet about being gay and lie about their love lives, avoid being targeted or discriminated against. But a lot of gays cannot pass. And why should the ones who can have to lie about themselves?
To sum up, as another poster pointed out, going back into the closet or demanding celibacy is the equivalent of telling blacks not to be uppity or to "go back to Africa where you belong."
^Absolutely, I can't stand when stereotypes are reinforced, the stereotypical representations of sub cultures are generally negative. No one should wear their sexuality on their sleeve, it shouldn't define you. I shouldn't be able to tell that you are a homosexual, it should take you/someone telling me for me to ever find out, it shouldn't be an obvious thing, and it isn't if you're defined by your personality and not by your sexuality. for example, let's say I meet 2 people, both are homosexual, I have 15 minute conversations with both.
The first conversation takes on a natural course (music, movies, weather, what do you do, etc, etc.) 15 minutes later I have no idea this person is gay, nor would I care if I found out later.
The second person has a lisp, is wearing women's perfume and makeup, has a high pitched squealy voice, talks about sexual topics, if it's at a bar they order some disgustingly named shot. I know this person is gay immediately.
See the difference?
Some people are just nelly (in the case of men) or butch (in the case of women) and can't help it.
And it doesn't always reflect their sexual orientation.
aye, i didnt even read the thread but im in full agreement of the title
thumbs up
you know im black when you see me, there is no hiding it
i only know youre gay when you show yourself to be gay
if a gay person has to use black as a crutch for your arguement then you are up ish creek
perhaps form a coalition of black homosexuals to speak on the matter
The first people those black homosexuals would have to speak to in order to advance their cause would be straight blacks who don't understand gays, as is well indicated in this thread.
Again, a lot of gays can't "hide it' and shouldn't have to, anyway.
It's unfortunate that a homophobic black straight community -- while complaining of its own oppression -- is instrumental in the DOUBLE oppression of gay blacks, who apparently are not accepted in their own backyard.
DNA can determine a persons race but it cannot determine their sexual orientation.
Sez who?
Quote:
This is the main reason the Gay fight for marriage equality struggles even as Gays use the Black example as some sort of touchstone of validation.
I have yet to see any evidence in this long thread that gays are using (or need to use) the "black example" as a touchstone of validation. Some gays might have made that comparison early in the gay rights movement (around 1975), but I've seen no evidence of it recently apart from the general assertion that gay rights are civil rights.
Quote:
Gay is no more a separate race of people than are bisexual, polyamorous, BDSM or Fetishists are.
So you have to be a race in order to deserve civil rights protections? Guess that leaves out women, children, the elderly, Hispanics (who are various races), Jews (ditto), religious minorities, etc.
Quote:
White gay people are denied full marriage equality in some parts of the country because the issue is not race! Its gender. DNA can determine gender, it cannot determine sexuality.
DNA can't determine sexual orientation?
Sez who?
The bottom line: People should not be discriminated against solely on the basis of being something they can't help being -- as long as that "something" does not harm other people.
Last edited by dechatelet; 03-19-2015 at 01:00 AM..
Okay, well you gave quite a jarring example of behaviors that gays shouldn't display to make their sexuality obvious. Any tips on what behaviors straight people should avoid so people don't figure out they're straight?
[quote=gwillyfromphilly;38842656]I am by no means a homophobic person but there are some issues that need to be addressed with the Gay community. I have no problem with people who say that gay rights is civil rights but please stop comparing the Gay rights struggle with the Black American civil rights struggle because not all struggles are the same. Here's some things the Gay community needs to understand.
1. Black Americans paved the way for a lot of these minority groups(Gays, Hispanics, etc) to even have rights in this country. So please start showing some respect.
Please. Black people do not own the term "civil rights." Various groups had fought for that very concept throughout world and American history. The methods of the modern women's rights movement probably rightfully can be said to have paved the way for the black civil rights movement, as it came first.
Oh, and by the way, "black" civil rights often reached back to historical struggles of other people they had nothing to do with (such as the Jews of Egypt) as an analogy of their own struggle, so that people OUTSIDE their struggle could relate and understand their perspective.
Stop getting so butthurt, and learn some damn history.
2. Stop expecting Blacks to automatically support your causes when Blacks are struggling to support their on causes. You can't a expect an oppressed group to help another minority group when we can barely help ourselves as a community.
It's not unreasonable to ask that one group who demands equal treatment on account of things they cannot change about themselves to seek empathy and support from other groups who base their entire rights movement on the same damn principals.
3. Stop acting like racism doesn't exist in the homosexual community. Just because your gay doesn't mean you can't be racists or prejudice. Your sexuality preference has nothing to with your racial identity. Yeah, I know some of you don't want to here that but it's the cold hard truth.
? The gay community is comprised of all people of all shades of the rainbow. Your comment is about as useful as saying the black civil rights movement should be undermined due to pervasive colorism and racism that exists in the black community.
Because let's be real: racism, prejudice and homophobia doesn't exist in the black community. Just because you're black doesn't mean you get to claim a "bigot free" card because you "lack power," no matter what your idiot sociology professor is telling you.
4. It's very insulting to many African Americans when you say that homosexuals have suffered just as bad as Blacks have throughout American history. Of course we all know that is far from the truth.
Gay people don't really say that. But there are stark parallels. And to this day gays don't have the political and legal protections that people do on account of race.
I want to stress again that I don't hate homosexuals (just in case someone wants to defame my character) but this silliness when it comes to comparing the Gay rights struggle with the Black rights struggle needs to stop. It's getting old and people are growing tired of it so please cut the crap!
Right. I'm sure you don't.
"People are growing tired of it?" LOL, who gives a damn!
And you are a black woman. Whose opinions I admire and respect. It must be said, however, that black mens and black womens overall success in America is not equal. And although I am a moderately successful black man I cannot ignore the evidence of every new day that things could be much better for black people in America, but especially for black men. There is still rampant housing, employment and other discrimination going on against black people. In fact, the very EEO that seeks to level the playing field has become a very effective tool in doing just the opposite, since every employer worth having now uses EEO mandates to screen potential applicants for race and other protected class qualifiers. This data is supposed to be collected post hire, but you tell me the last time you filled out a job application that did not ask for this information pre-hire. Maybe this information is used in the way it is supposed to be used and maybe it is used as a way to save time and energy and not interview people who won't need to be considered. What cannot be denied is that alone among all the races in America, blacks have the highest unemployment by far. This cannot be explained by any other phenomena except racial bias in hiring.
And really, that is where it rests, because if you can't work, all the other interesting things in life... marriage, housing, eating... they get difficult without gainful employment. Blacks never especially wanted to be able to marry! They wanted not to be lynched. They wanted not to be owned. They wanted to be able to work for adequate compensation. Gays can obsess over marriage equality because they have the basics down. They can exist! That's huge. I'm doing fine, but WE aren't doing fine. Not by any yardstick. By any measure gays as a group have black people as a group left standing when it comes to access to the basic Civil Rights. It is blacks who should use gays as a model and touchstone, not the other way around.
H
I agree with practically everything you said except for the fact that on paper, black men economically still do better than black women even though black women now have higher educational attainment versus men. Like I stated, there is still discrimination and there is still prejudice and racial institutions in this country - primarily the criminal justice system. Housing discrimination moreso affects single mothers of all ethnicities and immigrants, mainly hispanic immigrants today in the US and those with disabilities versus black people so housing discrimination is an area where there have been great improvements for black Americans. BTW I work in housing and am very much aware of the protections citizens have in this area.
You do not have to state your race on employment applications. I never give my race when in consideration for private sector jobs unless they are a contractor with the government as they have to collect that sort of data for the government to prove they are not discriminatory in hiring. I also provide it when I apply for government positions due to the same reasons stated above. I primarily perform consulting work with government agencies so I usually do provide my ethnicity/gender but it is not required at all, not even when you are hired there is no mandate that they have to collect that data, there is a mandate that they not discriminate against you based on race, gender, disability, religion and/or other protected classes.
But all of those do not negate the fact that black people are better off today than they were pre-1965. You stated in your previous post that no significant progress had been made. That is entirely false. Progress has been made on all accounts. And while I especially agree with the bold above, which was the reason that I also agree with the OP in that I do not like black Civil Rights struggles used predominately when speaking of Civil Rights for those who are LGBTQ, as a multi-generational black American, who is well versed in my own family's history, I know that my grandmother could never have had the opportunity to have the same position that I have today. No matter how much education she received she would never have been allowed to apply let alone receive my job. The same can be said for my grandfather and my great grandfather both of whom actually had post high school educations pre-1950 but who could not get jobs in a field other than janitorial or service worker/delivery/errand boy positions. My husband and my son are much better off than they were. Laws have been taken off of books in this country in various states that blocked equal access to just the opportunity for employment and the opportunity to buy homes in whatever area we wanted. My mother's generation was much worse off than I am today in regards to housing discrimination.
So please know that progress has been made. Black people fought and died for you. They changed the mindset of America to where people are actually willing to listen to the argument that LGBTQ persons should have equal access to social institutions afforded to non -LGBTQ persons. I don't like for my people's contributions to be overlooked. The gains made were primarily gained by black people and too often black people today complain like they actually have to endure all permeating struggles that our grandparents an great grandparents had to contend with. No group of whites is out to mob you on the street. No one has said you cannot live in your current neighborhood. No one has denied you and/or your children the opportunity to receive an education.
Though like I said, there is still progress to be made, the lion's share of progress has already been accomplished and you should be grateful and acknowledge those accomplishments instead of saying that nothing has changed.
I will add to be back on topic, that just because black people like myself may not like the references to the black American Civil Rights movement in regards to providing civil rights to LGBTQ Americans does not mean that we don't support you in getting your rights.
I just feel it is not an equivalent comparison, mostly due to what many have shared including the OP and Leistrum above, that black people were fighting to be seen as humans. Blackness was not something that most could hide and treatment due to being black permeated every aspects of one's life. It literally could keep you from living in a particular place, going to a particular school, obtaining a particular job, etc. It was a multi-generational cancer to be black in this country that stopped forward progress for our ancestors for centuries in this country.
There have always been gays in this country. Even though I don't agree with hiding or sheilding one's behavior, this could be done by white gays and lesbians here. They had equal access to basic necessities and rights not afforded to black people.
As stated, there have been many black gay/lesbian activist and writers who fought and wrote mostly in regards to racial issues. I spoke above about James Baldwin, who was openly gay and over the years he mentioned being gay was trivial in comparison to being black in America and he was right about that. People looking at him would not see "a gay" they would see a black man and treat him accordingly. And so many blacks feel that using our struggles to lobby for gay marriage in particular negates the fact that black people were stigmatized on sight for everything. Not just in certain circumstances.
I also agree with the OP in that there is a lot of racism between black and white gays/lesbians. Not meaning to sound contrite, but I am being honest, I know a lot of gay people and have gay family members and I personally don't care who people are with or what they do as long as it is within the confines of a consensual relationship, but black gay people I know, including my family members do complain about the racism and prejudice they have faced from white gays/lesbians. Even the white gay people I know admit that there is racism within the gay community. If you look at economic statistics black gay men and lesbian gay women do MUCH worse economically than whites, especially black lesbian women who are some of the poorest women in the country. Black gay men are stereotyped as having HIV/AIDS and stigmatized by white gay men and I have been to gay clubs with one of my good friends who is black gay man and there are a lot of seperate gay clubs where only black gay men go and white gay men go.
And I alluded to it in a previous post, but black Transgendered individuals face a lot of oppression and persecution and it would be a good thing if more white transgendered individuals and LGBTQ people's as a whole reached out to help them not be literally "lynched" as they have one of the highest rates of violence perpetuated against them versus other groups. I also don't feel that the gay community does enough to equalize treatment of transgendered individuals on the whole. It is all about marriage when trans persons are being beaten and victimized and in need of a more concerted movement on their behalf and if anything, they are more equivalent to the black struggle for civil rights than gay marriage. Since the end of slavery black people have been allowed to get married and most black people were not all gung ho about interracial marriage during the civil rights movement, similar to white Americans beliefs that the "races shouldn't mix." So that was never something that was fought for. The right not to be brutalized and victimized and to have open access to education and employment though were fought for and are things that transgendered individuals have issues with today.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
