Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've read this philosophy from different libertarians who talk about taxes being theft and that they should be illegal because of that. But what I don't understand is why do people want that? Don't people realize what taxes pay for?
Schools, we forget that on the local level schools get their budgets from the state government. What do we do, just have private schools that you have to pay an arm and a leg for? We already have that, it's called college and look at the student loan bubble at about 20K per student shackling them in a way that many cannot move.
Roads, roads are funded by the gas tax. If the gas tax is repealed with other taxes, who would fund the road you drive on your errands? Who will fund the bridge you cross over to go to work?
Public Transportation, similar to roads public transit such as buses, trains, subways and lightrail systems can only run on fare so much, expansion of lines rely on money. Who pays for that?
Defense, if there is no taxes on the federal level who will cover equipment for a war brought upon us by an attack?
We need to pay taxes but everyone needs to pay instead of demanding other people pick up their slack. By your comment shouldn't the people who don't pay get off the roads, not send their kids to school that I help pay for. If I pay 4 times as much as the next person does that mean I get to drive 4 times faster?
Everyone needs to pay. If the poor can't pay they should be required to work to contribute.
At least you realize taxes are a need. That's a start. The issue with your stance is no tax system is perfect. If you have Manny, Moe and Mack. Manny makes 100K a year, Moe gets paid 10K and Mack gets paid 45K they should all pay taxes right? Most people would say yes, however that is not the case. See Moe works for an employer that pays under the table so Moe don't pay payroll taxes off the bat. From there, Moe may make not enough to actually file taxes which by your terms makes him a taker.
The issue is there are Moes of the world and there are also Mitch's of the world. I didn't list Mitch because you may see him panhandling at the Target with a shopping cart and he don't make much of an income. There's no perfect solution to solve this because a flat tax means Moe just walks out with no payroll taxes and a sales tax proposal like the Fair Tax, would make the Moes pay the brunt of it by virtue of living paycheck-to-paycheck for groceries while Manny gets off because they have enough income to save.
I've read this philosophy from different libertarians who talk about taxes being theft and that they should be illegal because of that. But what I don't understand is why do people want that? Don't people realize what taxes pay for?
Schools, we forget that on the local level schools get their budgets from the state government. What do we do, just have private schools that you have to pay an arm and a leg for? We already have that, it's called college and look at the student loan bubble at about 20K per student shackling them in a way that many cannot move.
Roads, roads are funded by the gas tax. If the gas tax is repealed with other taxes, who would fund the road you drive on your errands? Who will fund the bridge you cross over to go to work?
Public Transportation, similar to roads public transit such as buses, trains, subways and lightrail systems can only run on fare so much, expansion of lines rely on money. Who pays for that?
Defense, if there is no taxes on the federal level who will cover equipment for a war brought upon us by an attack?
I'm gonna put on my con hat here. Think like a con and see if I can answer that question
hmmm
I got it. The way you do it is you tax only low income people. not rich people. Because taxes are only theft when rich people pay them. When low income people pay them it's called "paying their fair share" or "having skin in the game" or "not leeching off of others"
I've read this philosophy from different libertarians who talk about taxes being theft and that they should be illegal because of that. But what I don't understand is why do people want that? Don't people realize what taxes pay for?
Schools, we forget that on the local level schools get their budgets from the state government. What do we do, just have private schools that you have to pay an arm and a leg for? We already have that, it's called college and look at the student loan bubble at about 20K per student shackling them in a way that many cannot move.
Roads, roads are funded by the gas tax. If the gas tax is repealed with other taxes, who would fund the road you drive on your errands? Who will fund the bridge you cross over to go to work?
Public Transportation, similar to roads public transit such as buses, trains, subways and lightrail systems can only run on fare so much, expansion of lines rely on money. Who pays for that?
Defense, if there is no taxes on the federal level who will cover equipment for a war brought upon us by an attack?
I don't know of anyone, except the most ardent type of Anarchists who say that ALL taxation is theft.
Even most Libertarians will acknowledge that a certain level of taxation is necessary for running society and to preform the necessary functions of government.
The argument comes with constitutionally defining what the legitimate functions of government are.
And naturally, follows the argument of how much taxation is justifiable as well as how and from whom it is collected.
I will say this:
I believe that taxation above what is necessary for the constitutional function of government, like national defense and infrastructure that does not fall upon the individual states to fund (national parks, interstate hwy systems etc) is theft in my opinion.
I also believe that the Commerce Clause was probably the single biggest power grab in the history of the the United States and a gross violation of original the spirit of the Constitution that the founding fathers envisioned.
Taxation on a state level is a different story as most powers of legislation and taxation were originally given to the states. Citizens were free to vote with their feet and move to a different state if the one they lived in was not in line with their morals, and values concerning the use and level of taxation.
Your mistake was actually giving that bit of idiocy a second thought. I could say that green is orange but it doesn't make it so, and so can and should be dismissed out of hand rather than playing into the foolishness of puerile libertarian fantasy.
Perhaps it does. I just look at it and find it laugh able because there are a whole lot of things particularly on the local side we do benefit from. Take public schools for instance, you have better schools, you produce more knowledgeable people who then can become knowledgeable people. Arizona has a problem where school funding is very low and they were in the bottom five of US state school systems before the more recent rounds of budget cuts. Arizona is also lagging behind economically. There is a correlation there, causation, is possible too.
Quote:
They think selfishly. Exclusively. So they only worry about what needs to be paid for, for their own personal benefit. Some of the things you mentioned are things that they feel comfortable that they are or will be able to pay for themselves, and so there is only negative value associated with society ensuring that everyone has such things (like education for the young). Other things are things that they feel that they'll never make use of themselves, and again it is callous disregard for others that motivates them to apply abject selfishness to justify their opposition.
Yeah like Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, TANF, EBT, etc. They may need it should things turn south for them or perhaps they are old enough to collect or broken down and cannot work.
Quote:
But again, it's irrelevant. You're giving their inane, immoral self-delusion too much credence.
As I said earlier, perhaps. It just annoys me when people use rhetoric like taxes are theft.
No it isn't. Not matter how many times someone claims it, it still isn't. And the scurrilous nature of claiming it is is like a taint that you cannot wipe off of your comments.
It is theft when that money is taken from the people and given to another person who did not earn it, and I'm talking specifically to corporate and political cronyism.
The problem with the liberal left, is they believe any amount of taxation is justified, and there is no care or concern where any of that taxpayer money goes to, or what it's used for.
At least you realize taxes are a need. That's a start. The issue with your stance is no tax system is perfect. If you have Manny, Moe and Mack. Manny makes 100K a year, Moe gets paid 10K and Mack gets paid 45K they should all pay taxes right? Most people would say yes, however that is not the case. See Moe works for an employer that pays under the table so Moe don't pay payroll taxes off the bat. From there, Moe may make not enough to actually file taxes which by your terms makes him a taker.
The issue is there are Moes of the world and there are also Mitch's of the world. I didn't list Mitch because you may see him panhandling at the Target with a shopping cart and he don't make much of an income. There's no perfect solution to solve this because a flat tax means Moe just walks out with no payroll taxes and a sales tax proposal like the Fair Tax, would make the Moes pay the brunt of it by virtue of living paycheck-to-paycheck for groceries while Manny gets off because they have enough income to save.
Even our founding fathers understood the wealthy being taxed at a higher rate then the poor was an accepted norm. What they did not accept was the notion that the poor man should be made comfortable by stuffing his wallet with money government taxed from the wealthier man.
I see your POV, however, much of our tax money is wasted on stuff for them, instead of what it should be used for.
I think there is waste too but where is the waste? There was a study several years ago with drug users on welfare and I believe only 5% came up dirty. The cost of doing the tests is not worth kicking those off because if you are able to kick the 5% off, you'll be left testing the 95% who now make up your 100% and paying for their test.
Quote:
what really makes people angry is when they grow older and see history being repeated, i.e. taxes again on gas to improve roads....I've lived in PA all of my life, and never have I see such bad roads anywhere else, but they keep taxing us using the excuse to better roads, but they never do, it is pathetic, and where is all that money going.
I've seen bad roads and I lived in the northeast for 19 years and also in Arizona for only about 8. I've seen bad roads in both places. Perhaps you got lucky.
Quote:
Think about it, for a moment....
misuse of funds isn't isolated, it is a big problem in government and our own communities.
Which there inlies the rub, where is the misuse. I agree there is likely misuse but until we show where and how Amtrak should remove theft and waste, that $9.50 burger costs us $16 to put together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero
uhm...taxes themselves are not theft...
but when you are taxing at such high rates (and its not just federal taxes..but ALL taxes when tallied up can be way more than 50% of ones income) it is robbery
Most people don't pay 50% of one's income. The closest is when we talk the gas tax or sales tax on lower income. Most of the richest people in America who pay 38% taxes on income or 20% on maximized capital gains still win on regressive state taxes.
Quote:
your point one....not in my state...school taxes at levied and set by the town.... my property tax is two pieces...one county...covers the police, libraries, parks, etc...the big one is the town tax...its only the school...and its 3 times what the county tax.....(((they spend 24k per pupil((((and allow people to graduate who cant read)))))))..............my little 1400sf house on a 60x110 property costs me 12k a year.....20% of my income...(at least I can write it off on the federal side)
I've lived in Arizona and New York all my life and the taxes were done differently. New York is very high property tax and school funding came from the individual towns while in Arizona property taxes are much lower and school funding comes from the state taxes.
Quote:
your point two....meanwhile you can lose an axel with the potholes we have...seems to me the tax isn't working
That is a problem with your state's or town's road maintenance.
Quote:
your point four....at least its the one constitutionally allowed spending
The others maybe allowed through state constitutions as they are more state responsibilities (besides interstates.)
Quote:
I don't mind paying taxes...don't mind having safety nets for those that need it...
I do mind unfair, and exuberant taxes
tax EVERYONE at the same rate...and if the FEDERAL government cant run on 10% (15% at the most) of everyones income.......then there is a spending problem
The problem is we would still have issues unless you only tax income and capital gains at the same rate. Sales and gas taxes are regressive (like the state taxes I referred to earlier) and there fore take a larger chunk out of the income of a lower income person. Think about it. If we use Manny, Moe and Mack again. Manny still makes 100K, Moe still makes 10K and Mack still makes 45K and all use the same amount of gas which is 20 gallons a week and pay the same price for regular at 2.40 and it don't change through the years. They all pay $2,496 a year. For Manny that is 2.5% of income, Mack spends 5.5% income and Moe is hosed at 25% of income. But yet they spent the same.
Taxes are supposed to be used to benefit everyone and not just worthless losers and 3rd world mongrels
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
