Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
When you are the Little Guy, you need to be doing it bigger and better than everyone else.
I levy the same criticism against Communist and Socialist Parties.
It doesn't take a Master's in Political Science to understand Human Nature.
Most Americans are from Missouri....you have to show them, not tell them.
That means to be take seriously, you have to be elected to political office and then do things and show people what it is you're all about and what you can do for them.
In Friedman's "Free to Choose" he argued the Socialist Party was the most successful American political party in recent times as far as getting their agenda advanced. The Socialist Party platform of 1928 from Free to Choose:
Socialist Party Of America 1928 Platform
Herewith the economic planks of the Socialist party platform of 1928, along with an indication in parenthesis of how these planks have fared. The list that follows includes every economic plank, but not the full language of each.[SIZE=2]1[/SIZE]
"Nationalization of our natural resources, beginning with the coal mines and water sites, particularly at Boulder Dam and Muscle Shoals." (Boulder Dam, renamed Hoover Dam, and Muscle Shoals are now both federal government projects.)
"A publicly owned giant power system under which the federal government shall cooperate with the states and municipalities in the distribution of electrical energy to the people at cost." (Tennessee Valley Authority.)
"National ownership and democratic management of railroads and other means of transportation and communication." (Railroad passenger service is completely nationalized through Amtrak. Some freight service is nationalized through Conrail. The FCC controls communications by telephone, telegraph, radio, and television.)
"An adequate national program for flood control, flood relief, reforestation, irrigation, and reclamation." (Government expenditures for these purposes are currently in the many [non-adjusted] billions of dollars.)
"Immediate government relief of the unemployed by the extension of all public works and a program of long range planning of public works …" (In the 1930s, WPA and PWA were a direct counterpart; now, a wide variety of other programs are.) "All persons thus employed to be engaged at hours and wages fixed by bona-fide labor unions." (The Davis-Bacon and Walsh-Healey Acts required contractors with government contracts to pay "prevailing wages," generally interpreted as highest union wages.)
"Loans to states and municipalities without interest for the purpose of carrying on public works and the taking of such other measures as will lessen widespread misery." (Federal grants in aid to states and local municipalities currently total [non-adjusted] tens of billions of dollars a year.)
"A system of unemployment insurance." (Part of Social Security system)
"The nation-wide extension of public employment agencies in cooperation with city federations of labor." (U.S. Employment Service and affiliated state employment services administer a network of about 2,500 [in 1980] local employment offices.)
"A system of health and accident insurance and of old age pensions as well as unemployment insurance." (Part of Social Security system.)
"Shortening the workday" and "Securing to every worker a rest period of no less than two days in each week." (Legislated by wages and hours laws that require overtime for more than forty hours of work per week.)
"Enacting of an adequate federal anti-child labor amendment." (Not achieved as amendment, but essence incorporated in various legislative acts.)
"Abolition of the brutal exploitation of convicts under the contract system and substitution of a cooperative organization of industries in penitentiaries and workshops for the benefit of convicts and their dependents." (Party achieved, partly not.)
"Increase of taxation on high income levels, of corporation taxes and inheritance taxes, the proceeds to be used for old age pensions and other forms of social insurance." (In 1928, highest personal income tax rate, 25 percent; in 1978, 70 percent; in 1928, corporate tax rate, 12 percent; in 1978, 48 percent; in 1928, top federal estate tax rate, 20 percent; in 1978, 70 percent.)
"Appropriation by taxation of the annual rental value of all land held for speculation." (Not achieved in this form, but property taxes have risen drastically.)
I doubt if the Libertarian Party ever has much electoral success. The two main parties adjust too quickly for that. The hope is to move the Republican Party toward a more libertarian stance and go from there.
As a libertarian then, you probably understand that another libertarian wouldn't give a flip how you feel about libertarians. But would surely feel good about you thinking for yourself and making your own decisions...
In Friedman's "Free to Choose" he argued the Socialist Party was the most successful American political party in recent times as far as getting their agenda advanced. The Socialist Party platform of 1928 from Free to Choose:
Socialist Party Of America 1928 Platform
Herewith the economic planks of the Socialist party platform of 1928, along with an indication in parenthesis of how these planks have fared. The list that follows includes every economic plank, but not the full language of each.1
"Nationalization of our natural resources, beginning with the coal mines and water sites, particularly at Boulder Dam and Muscle Shoals." (Boulder Dam, renamed Hoover Dam, and Muscle Shoals are now both federal government projects.)
"A publicly owned giant power system under which the federal government shall cooperate with the states and municipalities in the distribution of electrical energy to the people at cost." (Tennessee Valley Authority.)
"National ownership and democratic management of railroads and other means of transportation and communication." (Railroad passenger service is completely nationalized through Amtrak. Some freight service is nationalized through Conrail. The FCC controls communications by telephone, telegraph, radio, and television.)
"An adequate national program for flood control, flood relief, reforestation, irrigation, and reclamation." (Government expenditures for these purposes are currently in the many [non-adjusted] billions of dollars.)
"Immediate government relief of the unemployed by the extension of all public works and a program of long range planning of public works …" (In the 1930s, WPA and PWA were a direct counterpart; now, a wide variety of other programs are.) "All persons thus employed to be engaged at hours and wages fixed by bona-fide labor unions." (The Davis-Bacon and Walsh-Healey Acts required contractors with government contracts to pay "prevailing wages," generally interpreted as highest union wages.)
"Loans to states and municipalities without interest for the purpose of carrying on public works and the taking of such other measures as will lessen widespread misery." (Federal grants in aid to states and local municipalities currently total [non-adjusted] tens of billions of dollars a year.)
"A system of unemployment insurance." (Part of Social Security system)
"The nation-wide extension of public employment agencies in cooperation with city federations of labor." (U.S. Employment Service and affiliated state employment services administer a network of about 2,500 [in 1980] local employment offices.)
"A system of health and accident insurance and of old age pensions as well as unemployment insurance." (Part of Social Security system.)
"Shortening the workday" and "Securing to every worker a rest period of no less than two days in each week." (Legislated by wages and hours laws that require overtime for more than forty hours of work per week.)
"Enacting of an adequate federal anti-child labor amendment." (Not achieved as amendment, but essence incorporated in various legislative acts.)
"Abolition of the brutal exploitation of convicts under the contract system and substitution of a cooperative organization of industries in penitentiaries and workshops for the benefit of convicts and their dependents." (Party achieved, partly not.)
"Increase of taxation on high income levels, of corporation taxes and inheritance taxes, the proceeds to be used for old age pensions and other forms of social insurance." (In 1928, highest personal income tax rate, 25 percent; in 1978, 70 percent; in 1928, corporate tax rate, 12 percent; in 1978, 48 percent; in 1928, top federal estate tax rate, 20 percent; in 1978, 70 percent.)
"Appropriation by taxation of the annual rental value of all land held for speculation." (Not achieved in this form, but property taxes have risen drastically.)
I doubt if the Libertarian Party ever has much electoral success. The two main parties adjust too quickly for that. The hope is to move the Republican Party toward a more libertarian stance and go from there.
Hi there T0103E, thanks for your response, I'm a tad tired at the moment, but will, perhaps, be back at another time to answer more fully.
Sure, no problem. I know how that is.
Quote:
Long story short version: Personally, I believe human beings to be more than their bodies. & I know you well enough (from these forums) to know you are not claiming otherwise.
What do you mean by that? Would you say animals are also more than their bodies, or that humans are not included in the animal kingdom?
Quote:
In my effort to understand your position more fully, I would like to ask you a question. Personally, why do you think Thomas Jefferson replaced ‘property’ with ‘pursuit of happiness’ in the US Declaration of Independence?
He never explained why, but I remember reading an article that mentioned that "the pursuit of happiness" was a concept going around at the time, and he possibly substituted it in because it was somewhat popular. I did a quick search to refresh my memory and found this quote...
Quote:
"Aside from the fact (one often overlooked) that Jefferson wrote “among these” when referring to the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness — thereby indicating that his list was not exhaustive — I point out that to have mentioned “property” as an inalienable right would have proved confusing to eighteenth-century readers. At that time “property” could refer to the moral power of dominion over one’s body, labor, actions, conscience, and so forth; or it could refer to external objects. In the former sense, “property” was regarded as an inalienable right, but this was not true of “property” in the narrow, more modern sense of the term. We can obviously alienate our external property by transferring ownership to other people.… Thus for Jefferson to have included property in his partial list of inalienable rights would have been highly ambiguous, at best." - George Smith
I think that's a possibility. Too bad we can't ask him ourselves.
In Friedman's "Free to Choose" he argued the Socialist Party was the most successful American political party in recent times as far as getting their agenda advanced. The Socialist Party platform of 1928 from Free to Choose:
Socialist Party Of America 1928 Platform
"Herewith the economic planks of the Socialist party platform of 1928, along with an indication in parenthesis of how these planks have fared. The list that follows includes every economic plank, but not the full language of each.
11. "Enacting of an adequate federal anti-child labor amendment." (Not achieved as amendment, but essence incorporated in various legislative acts.)
Locke coined the phrase "pursuit of happiness" not Jefferson.
The "pursuit of happiness" is the acquisition of private property, not bestiality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E
Too bad we can't ask him ourselves.
Looks like you need to be reading John Locke, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E
Because people are either ignorant of the philosophy or want to ignore it purposefully. If a person consents to give up their rights to self-ownership, that's their choice because it's their property. It's the same as owning a car, a dog, a sandwich...you can do what you want with it. If your self-ownership rights aren't respected, that's wrong.
It's their choice so long as it costs me $0.00 directly or indirectly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest
If self-ownership is a purposeful concept, why has it been, throughout history, sometimes perceived as alienable versus inalienable?
Guess what?
This isn't Perfect Worldâ„¢.
Guess what?
Humans are heavily flawed.
Guess what?
There are people who so crave power they will do anything, including enslave others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest
Perhaps more evident during times & places where some people were commonly perceived as other's property although in the present day, employment or labor contracts seem to encourage the 'renting' of persons.
Even the Village Idiot is smart enough to recognize the difference between the value of one's labor and the value of one's self.
Contractually...
The fact is liberals defend the concept of self-ownership up to the point they allow women to kill another human life. Yet they disagree when it comes to the almighty dollar.
That means to be take seriously, you have to be elected to political office and then do things and show people what it is you're all about and what you can do for them.
Mircea
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere"-Voltaire.
Liberty will likely never win on a popular vote because the masses prefer a nanny state and wealth redistribution. Once people see how the government can manage their lives for them and free them of that burden they opt for that route over and over again. That is why democracy is a monstrous form of government.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
