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Old 01-17-2008, 01:00 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 4,727,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post
I work in IT and have no problem with outsourcing.
So far so good, wait until that company becomes that little fish that is swallowed up by that big fish and see how things change.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,112,923 times
Reputation: 4936
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
I belong to a union and I have also been non union too. Given the choice, I would prefer to be UNION. Here is why:
1. Me, my spouse and 3 children enjoy FULL health, dental and life coverage which cost me ZERO out of my check. The only things that come out of my check are supplemental life for me and my spouse and transplant insurance for the family. Other than that, we pay $35 when we go to the doctor and $0-$17 for prescriptions depending on what we get. When I was non union I paid $200 a month just for myself and 1 child and the insurance paid nothing until we spent $1000 in a year out of pocket.
2. My pay is about 25% more than the pay of non union people who do the exact same job I do for different wireless carriers. I also get paid at double time after 49 hours a week and I am paid extra if I work at night, on call out or in dangerous parts of town. I get paid time and a half for any work on Sunday even if I have not worked 40 hours in the previous 5 days.
3. I get unlimited sick pay. If you are ill or hurt, you can stay off the job until you are well enough to come back. I have a co worker who broke an arm while cutting a tree at home and he was off for 7 weeks and is now at headquarters answering phones on light duty. He did not miss a CENT of his pay.
4. I have the right to bid for any other opening in the company every 2 years. Let's say that right now I work in Atlanta but I decide I want a change of scenery so a job opens up in Florida. I can bid for the opening and if I am the senior employee they have to give it to me.
5. My union has negotiated group deals with many vendors. My car was bought on a union program and financed the same way and I save lots of money. And we recently refid our mortgage with the same union company and that saved me appx $1000 in closing cost. Not only that BUT in the event of a strike in 2009 when our 5 year deal is up, I can suspend both the house and car payments during the strike.
6. My job is protected by both my senority and by disciplinary due process. A manager cannot just fire an employee because they don't like him or because- like me- we are outspoken and critical of things that prevent us from being the best employee we can be. That does not mean you cannot be fired. People are fired from union jobs all the time despite what the cons will try to tell you. But a manager has to make a compelling case for disimissal (misconduct, dishonesty, too many at fault vehicle accidents, driver's license suspended or revoked). We had a tech fired just a few months ago because he cussed out a citizen who asked him not to play loud music in his work van late at night at a cell site next door to where the man lived. It was not this guy's first trouble and the district manager fired him and it will probably stick. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we now have a new rule "no radio to be on while the vehicle windows are open". That will be around until this wears off some.
7. The union prevents the bosses from playing favourites. They cannot assign cushy jobs and overtime to just the people that they like. Everything is allocated equally. My old job did alot of this. The new people would get all the crap dumped on us while all the good stuff that either paid overtime or involved travel was given to the old employees. I resented it like hell.
Wow - sounds like the Venitian resort in Las Vegas - only their healthcare benefits are better. And, they have on site childcare

OBTW, they are not Union
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,653,235 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
I don't understand that comment.

When one of my staff requests a day off, if they have unused vacation time or sick leave, they will get paid for it.

I have, as an employer, no obligation to provide for either of these things (sick leave / vacation) - I do, but, it is not because of any union or unions.
You do it because it is now common business practice because of the unions. Before the unions, there was no paid vacation. If you took time off, you did not get paid.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,653,235 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
Wow - sounds like the Venitian resort in Las Vegas - only their healthcare benefits are better. And, they have on site childcare

OBTW, they are not Union
Neither is Google or Microsoft who do likewise BUT these are EXCEPTIONS to the rule. How many companies do you think operate this way? Most companies are cutting pay and cutting benefits.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,653,235 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
The word "fair" is very subjective.

If someone is discriminated against, there are laws and recourse

No, for the most part, Unions are not needed. In fact, Unions have been a major reason for the outsourcing that has happened.
That is not true. Most of the outsourcing has been done by NON UNION corporations because they are GREEDY and not because they are NEEDY. AT&T - a union company- does not outsource any of its IT work or call centres yet it somehow manages a profit every quarter.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,112,923 times
Reputation: 4936
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
Neither is Google or Microsoft who do likewise BUT these are EXCEPTIONS to the rule. How many companies do you think operate this way? Most companies are cutting pay and cutting benefits.
Not the point. In the case of the Venitian - the Unions are being rebuked because they could not beat what the workers have -

Understand, while perhaps in your case, a union is fine. But, the FACT is, Union membership is DECLINING - and you really need to look at the reasons why -

No, Unions are not what they once were - and they are actually becoming less necessary than ever before
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,112,923 times
Reputation: 4936
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
That is not true. Most of the outsourcing has been done by NON UNION corporations because they are GREEDY and not because they are NEEDY. AT&T - a union company- does not outsource any of its IT work or call centres yet it somehow manages a profit every quarter.
Let's see - GM - Unions? Yeah. Outsourcing? Yep. Union caused

And on, and on
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:13 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 4,727,347 times
Reputation: 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
Neither is Google or Microsoft who do likewise BUT these are EXCEPTIONS to the rule. How many companies do you think operate this way? Most companies are cutting pay and cutting benefits.
Microsoft the exception? They are lobbying for more H-1B’s claiming there aren’t enough Americans that can do the job. That’s BS. They are also moving more operations to other countries so they can pay lower wages.

Google has strong-armed the naive legislature in NC to give excessive tax breaks for land and building concessions based on promises of creating many high paying jobs. The reality is they are going to build a big building on land they got at fire sale prices to house a bunch of servers that will take a minimum number of staff to maintain.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,653,235 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoAdrian View Post
And the flipside of that scenario: Unions make it virtually impossible to extract employees who aren't carrying their weight and weigh down productivity. Lazy people get by with the minimum amount of work possible, and they have no incentive to change, because they know the union protects them.



But we aren't in the days of robber barons and monopolies anymore. Look again to what John Mackey has done at Whole Foods, without unions. Will there be places that don't treat their workers well? Of course. But if other employers follow the lead of people like Mackey, they'll start to see that treating their employees fairly gets them better productivity, which in turn means happier customers. Unions stop that from ever happening, because they start with the premise that management is evil and out to get everyone. They're counterproductive, and they're probably the worst method of fixing labor-management relations.
That too is largely a myth. It certainly is not true where I work. I am given certain assignments and task to complete on a daily basis and I am expected to complete and document my work in the time allotted. If I fail to do so, I have to explain why to management who will then decide if my lack of performance on a task will be applied to my monthly scorecard. Our monthly scorecards reflect 3 things: attendance (on time everyday= 100), productivity (number of assigned task completed), and quality (inspected work and revisits). If you fail 2 months in 12, you will be put into coaching where you will have to give up your territory and ride with a senior employee who will try to coach you to bring your performance up to par. If this fails, you will be subjected to the disciplinary process and eventually fired. For the most part this is not a problem with the people I work with because we were all highly trained and experienced tech workers before we went to work there but we did have one guy that just "couldn't get it" and could not be brought up to par. The rest of us were always having to redo his jobs or correct his documentation and time reporting errors. But he was a reliable employee and had a good attitude so the company, rather than fire him, offered him a job in our Network Operations Center where he now does remote testing and has become a good employee.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,112,923 times
Reputation: 4936
One type of union I have some familiarity with is teachers unions. To me, they are what is, in essence, wrong with education.

It is just about IMPOSSIBLE to fire a teacher today. Unions only are enhancing mediocrity in the teaching profession. Add to this "Tenure" and it only gets worse.

Unions OPPOSE performance based employment for teachers - making the teachers perform with quantifiable goals -

Every time, and everywhere, this type of concept is proposed, the teacher unions go stinking nuts!

Want to do something about public school education? Getting rid of teachers unions would be an excellent start!
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