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When a foreigner like myself reads these threads, he gets an impression that the entire social/political life in America revolves around gays. That's way too much attention for such a tiny group.
The movement is a modern day recreation of the Freedom Rides when a minority of Black folk wanted to get in the local Hilton or McDonald's.
On the other side is a very real religious objections with the single largest religious organization saying that its members are not to support such actions be the couple of the same sex, if one was divorced or if is baptized Catholic got married by Billy Graham, Chief Justice Roberts, or Captain Stubben of The Love Boat without hid Bishop's permission.
That clause in the traditional service where if anyone objected, means to get up and say stop this if you know X is Catholic and that is no Catholic priest officiating. No if Y was married to inmate Jones and divorced. And no they are both women.
The baker following his faith can not know if one of the party had a priest baptize him as an infant. He can not know if she was once married to someone still alive. He can see if they are the same gender or living as the same gender, and thus in this new moral age the Bakery Freedom Rides to force the non compliance with the bakery owners religious organizations.
I know of no group told to take anything down like that from their house. Of course they shouldn't have to remove anything like that from their own house.
Now you need to provide context for the rest. If a private business owner doesn't want holiday greetings up or prefers "Bah Humbug", that's his call to make. As an employer you can ask him to change his mind but in the end you live with his decision.
It was from a previous thread around Christmas where a person got mad about someone saying Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas and the customer said "Jesus is the reason for the season." Like Jesus Christ was the one to cause Chanukkah, Kawanza and New Year's Day also.
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I said it earlier and will again. Initially at least I do not believe any of these businesses were targeted over any perceived belief systems. In many cases these seem to have been long time customers. Of course you would go to your regular baker.
You didn't others do believe they were. I was remarking about them.
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Rulings often times have long arms.
They do, Roe v. Wade was led by a similar lawsuit in the mid 1960's with birth control. Loving v. Virginia was ruled partially due to the precedent in Brown v. Board in 1955. The issue is most people know a Hobby Lobby or Chick-fil-A are Christian valued companies the same as say a TBN. However Ma and Pa's Bakery may not but will claim it when a gay couple walk in asking for a wedding cake. Do they do this for divorce cakes, interfaith marriage wedding cakes or Jewish wedding cakes?
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I indeed believe that being a jerk to your customers will hurt your bottom line. That is their problem, not mine.
Well it can be your problem if a lawsuit like the Washington one goes to the Supreme Court and you are a not outright religious cakeshop owner. Now you either have to become a religious cake shop to prevent gays coming in (unless they do want to bait you (like others have said they did)), put yourself out there to make a gay cake, close up shop or face legal action.
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We can deal with this on our own. People need to quit running to the government over every perceived boo boo.
OK, how about in this scenario:
Paul and Simon are a gay couple moving into your town due to Simon's place of work moving him. For argument sake the nearest non-"closely held" bakery (so a chain supermarket, Walmart, Sam's Club etc.) All the "closely held" bakeries are not outright religious in your town, there are about half religious and half not overtly. Because businesses are allowed to discriminate against customers because they don't like how they are, they have no bakery to goto without a 40 minute drive back and forth. Should the government step in at this point (if only a court?)
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
This. A million times this.
Only when the "boo-boo" is a difference of rights. You may have the right to discriminate against me but at the same time I also have the right to NOT be discriminated by you. That is why this is an issue.
I think the Teabaggers continue to show no end to their lunacy. There's a conservative who kept contacting gay bakeries to try to get an anti-gay cake made. I've never heard of a "gay bakery", why does the conservative in this link seem to know more than a dozen of them? And what mentalcase would have a cake baked with anti-gay messages? Does this sound like a sane thing to do? So many closeted gays among the Tea Party; I imagined they would've picked a more heterosexual sounding name than "Tea Party" for their group if they didn't have the handsome men on their minds.
If I was those people I'd tell the authoritarians to "bite me".
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It was from a previous thread around Christmas where a person got mad about someone saying Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas and the customer said "Jesus is the reason for the season." Like Jesus Christ was the one to cause Chanukkah, Kawanza and New Year's Day also.
I'm missing the problem here.
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You didn't others do believe they were. I was remarking about them.
Some do. Some have since this started but it didn't start this way.
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They do, Roe v. Wade was led by a similar lawsuit in the mid 1960's with birth control. Loving v. Virginia was ruled partially due to the precedent in Brown v. Board in 1955. The issue is most people know a Hobby Lobby or Chick-fil-A are Christian valued companies the same as say a TBN. However Ma and Pa's Bakery may not but will claim it when a gay couple walk in asking for a wedding cake. Do they do this for divorce cakes, interfaith marriage wedding cakes or Jewish wedding cakes?
I've also noted that I believe many to be hypocritical here but that shouldn't be illegal.
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Well it can be your problem if a lawsuit like the Washington one goes to the Supreme Court and you are a not outright religious cakeshop owner. Now you either have to become a religious cake shop to prevent gays coming in (unless they do want to bait you (like others have said they did)), put yourself out there to make a gay cake, close up shop or face legal action.
"Sorry, my cake decorator is booked through that date".
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OK, how about in this scenario:
Paul and Simon are a gay couple moving into your town due to Simon's place of work moving him. For argument sake the nearest non-"closely held" bakery (so a chain supermarket, Walmart, Sam's Club etc.) All the "closely held" bakeries are not outright religious in your town, there are about half religious and half not overtly. Because businesses are allowed to discriminate against customers because they don't like how they are, they have no bakery to goto without a 40 minute drive back and forth. Should the government step in at this point (if only a court?)
No, we should step in.
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Only when the "boo-boo" is a difference of rights. You may have the right to discriminate against me but at the same time I also have the right to NOT be discriminated by you. That is why this is an issue.
Government laws concerning discrimination are discriminatory. Some are protected some are not. Some can discriminate some can not. The government needs to stay out of it.
Only when the "boo-boo" is a difference of rights. You may have the right to discriminate against me but at the same time I also have the right to NOT be discriminated by you. That is why this is an issue.
It isn't discrimination. The businesses involved sold to and served gays in the course of regular business. The only exception being they wouldn't provide goods/services for a same sex wedding, and that is an honest conviction as long as all such requests were declined.
"The Court’s "narrow function . . . is to determine" whether the plaintiffs’ asserted religious belief reflects"an honest conviction,"
If the bakery declined all requests made to them to bake cakes for same sex weddings, that would reflect an honest conviction.
They would need to corroborate these declined requests from different potential gay customers (more than just heresay) if it were to go to court. which these case very well could end up in court. The reason why we have so many court cases is where there is loopholes in laws. The HL win as well as protections granted through the Constitution allow for equal protection from discrimination.
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