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Those who are defending this program either never dealt with it or is guilty of hiring them. These rest of us have probably seen it, even lost a job because of it. It's in all fields, including many where many Americans are unemployed. Years ago I applied for a marketing director position, only to see it go to a visa worker. Meanwhile I know many marketing professionals who are unemployed. BTW the guy who got the job just graduated college, how could he be better than someone like me with years of experience? Another time I lost a public relations position to someone who came here from Brazil who could barely speak English. No idea if she was a visa worker but still, they should have hired an American over her.
I have had this experience too, with people who can barely speak English having a job and doing a poor job, but they have the job because of nefarious reasons.... I know of a local temporary job placement agency that is now managed mostly by Hispanic immigrants (they have thick accents) they recently hired a girl who is from Puerto Rico, and can barely speak coherent sentences in English or understand it on the phone. You can probably guess why she is allowed to keep her job, but if you can't guess, I'll tell you (her boss and her boss's boss are both Hispanic immigrants).
If there is a shortage of Americans, then why did Southern California Edison get rid of their American IT staff and replace them with H1-Bs? If such a shortage of Americans did indeed exist, then SCE would have kept their staff.
Because they outsourced it. Don't confuse H1-B with outsourcing. Edison replaced their IT Department with a subcontractor, that subcontractor provides the level of service they are obligated to provide. Where the work is done is irrelevant, I'd bet dollars to donuts 90% of the IT servicing is done from Bangalore or Hyderabad that doesn't require 90% of those workers to have H1-B's, because they'll never set foot in the US as a US employee.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Sorry. You can't pretend that there aren't thousands of unemployed experienced American citizen STEM/IT workers. Not only that but the older they are, the more likely they will be passed over in favor of an H1-B. Some of these Americans have been out of work so long that their skills have gone rusty. Yet, these days no company will take them on and get them up to speed. Don't tell me that these unemployed Americans should pay for training. Try doing that when you've been unemployed for so long that you've depleted your savings just trying to keep afloat.
Sure they are, and they're unemployed because they suck, they lie, they are unmotivated, they're entitled, they're stupid, or arrogant, they're incompetent, they can't solve simple problems never mind complex problems, they're people, and they're probably unsuitable for the field that they chose to work in.
Sorry it's a fact, it's fine being a "developer" in some little mom and pop-shop in the 80's and thinking you're gods gift to binary. It's an entirely different thing when you're required to develop a dynamic page ranking algorithm that will rank the top 500,000 static ranked pages returned from a web query by around 100 different parameters in under 0.5 seconds within 12 months. Not only do you need to know the nitty gritty of how bare metal is working so you can optimize it by doing simple bitshifts in a single clock cycle than multiplication or division that might take several, but you need to have three or four groups working on those pieces and they need to coordinate and cooperate too. While there are perhaps a million people who understand the bare metal enough to optimize to the degrees needed, that drops to maybe 10,000 who can do that and are not so completely socially incompetent as to be impossible to use on a team.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
These companies will continue to earn money without H1-Bs. Please don't trot out the line that if it weren't for H1-Bs, these jobs would be off shored. Either way, whether these jobs stay in this country and are taken by H1-Bs or if they're off shored, Americans still get the shaft.
The jobs wouldn't be offshored, the company would be. Americans get a much bigger shaft if the companies leave. No tax revenue from the corporation (other than US operations), no income taxes paid by the employees, no sales taxes paid by the employees, no utility taxes paid by the company. Which do you prefer 500,000 H1-B's paying income, FICA, sales etc. taxes or none of that listed, and massive layoffs from companies transitioning abroad?
I think the thing you're not getting is that in that situation, the cream of the American crop would still be recruited by those same companies, and then relocated to wherever that company is now based, because that's what these companies already do in the UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, India, China, etc. These are the people with significant earnings potential too, and you'd have a brain drain like Europe did in the 60's and 70's to the US.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
As for those in STEM programs, far too many bright kids are being discouraged from getting into the field because they hear the stories about Americans being passed over in favor of H1-Bs. Imagine coming out of college with student loan debts and not being able to find work in their fields.
As for you saying---in so many words---that not all STEM grads are competent. Well, neither are a lot of H1-Bs due to the fraud in the visa program, so many get away with lying about their skills.
Some do fraudulently use H1-B no denial, but that's no reason to end the program just fix the problem. I can't tell you (legally I can't) how many things you use daily that without some H1-B wouldn't exist (or might but not with the famous logo you know and probably love) and no all STEM grads are not competent not even a significant fraction, even those that are may only be competent in their field of expertise. I have little faith that a plant biologist would have any ability to deliver me a rendering engine for a graphics application ever. STEM grads are not given a blue and red suit with an S in a gold pentagon when they graduate. They're just the same dumb schmucks they were when they entered, with an onion skin and some rudimentary understanding of what their degree was about.
Look at the people who are or were non-US nationals, Stroustrup, Kernighan, Torvalds, Hejlsberg, Lerdorf, van Rossum, Gosling (and those are just for commonly used programming languages, or operating systems without which people like Krieger, Chen, Butterfield, Yang, Thiel, Musk, Brin would be out of work and who also all ineligible to run for president)
However, lets be honest here. I was once blogged about by a candidate for kicking him off his interview loop 15 minutes into his interview because he lied about his skillset, he was very unlucky because that was one of my areas of interest. You know what, because my company uses H1-B's he blogged that we choose cheaper foreign developers over good ol' beef fed Americans. I couldn't have cared less where he came from, or how much he negotiated his pay to (were he made an offer) because it was irrelevant to me as a development manager, it's not my money, and everyone was in a pay grade anyway. Do you think $10k makes any difference? Only to places struggling to pay the bills, the big corps, it's hardly even an annual bonus.
Those who are defending this program either never dealt with it or is guilty of hiring them. These rest of us have probably seen it, even lost a job because of it. It's in all fields, including many where many Americans are unemployed. Years ago I applied for a marketing director position, only to see it go to a visa worker. Meanwhile I know many marketing professionals who are unemployed. BTW the guy who got the job just graduated college, how could he be better than someone like me with years of experience? Another time I lost a public relations position to someone who came here from Brazil who could barely speak English. No idea if she was a visa worker but still, they should have hired an American over her.
As an aside, I was once interviewed by some oversight agency or another. I was an IT manager looking for a new employer (my employer sucked) and apparently I had applied to a job I thought was a possibility but it turned out there was a misunderstanding about my qualifications. I assume the oversight agency was investigating the potential employer. As I explained, I interviewed, both parties agreed that there was not a match, and I could provide no insight as to whether or not I was passed over by an H1B as a result of discrimination.
I am not surprised that the H1B process has evolved as a result of them MBA's examining the law and finding loopholes in favor of their employers.
OMG, gungnir! How can you disparage unemployed American citizens in such a way? You obviously have never been in that situation so you don't have a clue. This is what you wrote:
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Sure they are, and they're unemployed because they suck, they lie, they are unmotivated, they're entitled, they're stupid, or arrogant, they're incompetent, they can't solve simple problems never mind complex problems, they're people, and they're probably unsuitable for the field that they chose to work in.
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My husband is an experienced IT worker who has gotten awards, commendations and bonuses for his work. Seven years ago, he was out of work and it took him 10 months to find a job. He was called by lots of Indians who pretended to be interested but never called back. Either that or they would call him about jobs that had nothing to do with his skill set.
We were fortunate to have enough money saved so my husband could take a course to get a certificate showing his skills were up to date. Even though he was already self-taught, employers wanted that certificate.
Far too many experienced Americans are in the same boat but have had to go through their savings so don't have the funds to update their skills.
So, how about Gates relocates his HQ to Bangalore? That way he can hire all the Indians he wants. I'm sure that all his Americans would follow him there at their own expense, right?
You never did answer these questions --- Is Gates willing to take on experienced Americans whose skills have gone rusty due to being unemployed for so long, and train them? Is he willing to help with relocation costs? Since you avoided answering the question, obviously the answer to each one is "NO". After all, why do that when he can get H1-Bs with questionable skills, pay them less and work them long hours.
Where I live, we see how single H1-Bs live. They live in overcrowded housing. It works like this---a few of them find a house/apartment to rent. Then they assure the landlord that it is only for the (3 or 4) of them. Next thing you know, even more move in. One landlord discovered that there were 10 of them living in his house, with some living in the garage---and this is in an area with cold winters. He found out because the neighbors were not happy to have a flophouse on their street. This is one of the downsides to this visa program as H1-Bs aren't paid the same as Americans.
You admit that you have no problems passing over Americans for an H1-B. That's disgraceful and shameful.
Oh, yes, we all know that H1-Bs are out there making a dent. We see it all the time when they majorly screw up things.
It's long past time to abolish this visa program. Once Americans are not going without STEM/IT work and are fielding lots of offers to the point where jobs go begging, create a new temporary visa program that has very strict oversight and no path to a green card.
Let me ask another question: why are so many top actors in Hollywood foreigners?
You hired British and Australian actors to play superman, batman, X-Men, Abraham Lincoln, ...
You can't find good looking American men who can act? I suppose it's easier than completing a master's degree in computer science.
OMG, gungnir! How can you disparage unemployed American citizens in such a way? You obviously have never been in that situation so you don't have a clue. This is what you wrote:
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Sure they are, and they're unemployed because they suck, they lie, they are unmotivated, they're entitled, they're stupid, or arrogant, they're incompetent, they can't solve simple problems never mind complex problems, they're people, and they're probably unsuitable for the field that they chose to work in.
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I'm not disparaging Americans, I'm disparaging Americans who cannot succeed in IT. This isn't T-Ball you don't get a trophy for coming last, and if you're not the first past the post you get nothing except an experience you can write about.
Not all Americans suck etc., but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the majority who are unemployed in IT exhibit one or more of these traits. Here's a fact. in 10 years working for Microsoft, Google and Amazon I issued 5 "Hire" emails from interviews of external candidates. I performed around 10 interviews per year (excepting the first year). Those hires went on in the company to do great things (and I'm still in contact with them) around half were US Citizens, so 2.5% ballpark of interviews I conducted were successful US candidates and 2.5% of interviews I conducted were foreign. Now I didn't always hold the majority opinion, and there were cases where we hired someone who I issued a "No Hire" to, not many were successful, and many were managed out after their first year.
The rest were complete trash all of them.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
My husband is an experienced IT worker who has gotten awards, commendations and bonuses for his work. Seven years ago, he was out of work and it took him 10 months to find a job. He was called by lots of Indians who pretended to be interested but never called back. Either that or they would call him about jobs that had nothing to do with his skill set.
We were fortunate to have enough money saved so my husband could take a course to get a certificate showing his skills were up to date. Even though he was already self-taught, employers wanted that certificate.
Far too many experienced Americans are in the same boat but have had to go through their savings so don't have the funds to update their skills.
Is he working now? Or has he spent the last seven years unemployed? If he's unemployed again, you need to ask some hard questions. If he needs certificates then he's really playing in amateur hour. None of the great companies you know, or are upcoming care about the certs, they might crack the door by a millimeter, but what you do, how you do it, and why you do it that way are will blow away some onion skin in the first 5 minutes.
The people that need certs are the people who are not IT companies, but have IT departments. Not the same thing at all, and most are MBA heavy at the top, because like the old saying of no one got fired for buying big blue, no one gets fired for hiring someone who is incompetent with a CM CS Degree. Which is to say, that they're more concerned about not making a mistake than being successful (not the same thing at all).
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
So, how about Gates relocates his HQ to Bangalore? That way he can hire all the Indians he wants. I'm sure that all his Americans would follow him there at their own expense, right?
Hell no, Microsoft's CEO is Satya Nadella, not Bill Gates, I'd expect you to know that, given your deep knowledge of the industry and problems. Look Microsoft (and Apple, Google, etc.) are cash rich especially so with offshore earnings that aren't being repatriated because of tax concerns. Essential staff, and company HQ with facilities construction could cost Microsoft $10B, that's 1/9th of the cash assets that Microsoft holds, Google has around $60B, Apple has over $100B, and is close to the worlds largest cash reserves of any entity only Malaysia has greater cash assets. You wouldn't transfer non-essentials, they would be downsized, but there would be say 5k-6k engineers relocated, US HR would go, Business development (i.e. sales) would remain in the US as the US division. Even then it wouldn't be at Bill's expense or Satya's expense it would be a corp expense. MS pays $22B to the US Gov for business operations in the US, $10B relocation is six months of US corporate taxes, I'm pretty sure that the company relocating could get a 12 month corporate tax relief period if they asked nicely. Like I said it would be a blip on the balance sheet.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You never did answer these questions --- Is Gates willing to take on experienced Americans whose skills have gone rusty due to being unemployed for so long, and train them?
They already do, but I noticed something...
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experienced Americans whose skills have gone rusty
I've been retired for 5 years (and I'm not bald and grey just yet). I'm not rusty. I still do software development for personal pleasure, self development, and to help out Open Source projects, I just retired because I no longer needed the money, and could focus on my personal goals outside of standard employment (like moving to Alaska, building a house from scratch on uncleared land). Why are those Americans who are unemployed allowing their skills to go rusty? That's not on the Industry, that's on the American. It's not hard, even in IT, I've got two domains, a dozen servers, two laptops, an Android phone, two gaming consoles (attached to the domain), and I'm not even on grid power (we generate our own), or have a hardline to the Internet, I've also upgraded the servers operating systems several times, and have them imaged for cleaning. It's not a lot of money to spend to keep your skills in shape, you can pick up a cheap server a few years old for a couple of hundred bucks. There's not much more you need than that set up to keep even IT skills in shape, so for $2000-$3000 you have an IT playground to keep your skills sharp.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Is he willing to help with relocation costs? Since you avoided answering the question, obviously the answer to each one is "NO". After all, why do that when he can get H1-Bs with questionable skills, pay them less and work them long hours.
Same as any other American worker, negotiation goes a long way. If you're going to work for a cheapskate no they won't help, they're not going to pay or advance you $30-$40k relocation when your annual salary is $60k. If you're position is in six figures, then they'll work with you.
Hey don't say H1-B's have questionable skills, the skills they have are comparable to Americans, and all of them (foreign and US) pretty much suck.
What are long hours? I've done 120+ hour weeks to hit deadlines and deliverables, is that long hours? My contracts (which were pretty standard stated 40 hours per week and as needed to achieve deliverables and goals), there was no difference in my contract and people on visa, there was little difference in wages between mine and others who were on visa at the same level or grade.
One final point on these, what makes you think that as an American, someone should dip into their pocket to bail you out? Because you're an American? That's not how it works, if someone can do the job they get hired, if there's too much hassle in working out their hire criteria there's someone else who can do the job that has fewer hassles.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Where I live, we see how single H1-Bs live. They live in overcrowded housing. It works like this---a few of them find a house/apartment to rent. Then they assure the landlord that it is only for the (3 or 4) of them. Next thing you know, even more move in. One landlord discovered that there were 10 of them living in his house, with some living in the garage---and this is in an area with cold winters. He found out because the neighbors were not happy to have a flophouse on their street. This is one of the downsides to this visa program as H1-Bs aren't paid the same as Americans.
So the one's you know live in a manner you don't agree with. So what. H1-B's have to be paid the same as Americans, it's a requirement of LCA they must be paid at least the prevailing wage for that job role in that area. If you have H1-B's who are not earning enough to finance their own apartment, then you need to move to an area where the prevailing wage can finance your expected lifestyle, because no company is going to pay your American Husband 3 or more times what they're paying Vivek for the same work just because he's an American.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You admit that you have no problems passing over Americans for an H1-B. That's disgraceful and shameful.
I'll pass over anyone, if the candidate I'm passing over isn't as good as the one before or after. It's not about their employment status, it's about their skills, knowledge and drive. There's no place in business for sentimentality.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Oh, yes, we all know that H1-Bs are out there making a dent. We see it all the time when they majorly screw up things.
See it all the time when anyone screws things up, most of the screw ups I experience are not even caused by software, and are 100% Americans causing the screw up. It's not that H1-B's screw up any more or less than anyone else, it's just that you have a confirmation bias that is extreme.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
It's long past time to abolish this visa program. Once Americans are not going without STEM/IT work and are fielding lots of offers to the point where jobs go begging, create a new temporary visa program that has very strict oversight and no path to a green card.
And you'll kill the industry in the US, and given your descriptions of your situation, you're not going to like it.
One final point on these, what makes you think that as an American, someone should dip into their pocket to bail you out? Because you're an American? That's not how it works, if someone can do the job they get hired, if there's too much hassle in working out their hire criteria there's someone else who can do the job that has fewer hassles.
On the other side though....why the hostility towards us being more concerned about Americans first? I kind of live in this country, and really prefer that we watch out for ourselves first.
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So the one's you know live in a manner you don't agree with. So what. H1-B's have to be paid the same as Americans, it's a requirement of LCA they must be paid at least the prevailing wage for that job role in that area. If you have H1-B's who are not earning enough to finance their own apartment, then you need to move to an area where the prevailing wage can finance your expected lifestyle, because no company is going to pay your American Husband 3 or more times what they're paying Vivek for the same work just because he's an American.
And if it was a requirement that was always being followed it might be awesome. Reality-they change the title of the job, and put someone incorrectly titled into it.
BTW-NOT as common at big companies like Apple, Intel, etc
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I'll pass over anyone, if the candidate I'm passing over isn't as good as the one before or after. It's not about their employment status, it's about their skills, knowledge and drive. There's no place in business for sentimentality.
But we are talking politics, which ARE supposed to be about the country. Not the business.
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See it all the time when anyone screws things up, most of the screw ups I experience are not even caused by software, and are 100% Americans causing the screw up. It's not that H1-B's screw up any more or less than anyone else, it's just that you have a confirmation bias that is extreme.
I too am in the business. I suspect at a company similar to yours. Possibly even the same one. And where do the mistakes come from? Well...yup about equal. This is incredibly complex stuff, and we eat people like pez til we find keepers.
And you'll kill the industry in the US, and given your descriptions of your situation, you're not going to like it.
Depends on how its done. Yeah a complete drop would do what you describe. But drop the H1-B visas available every year, and add in a exemption for a employee being paid 150K a year (tied to inflation, AND as per the going rate), and suddenly....if you truly need that guy, and theres no visa for him. Pay him 150K or more, problem solved. 150K is not unreasonable for skilled folks.
On the other side though....why the hostility towards us being more concerned about Americans first? I kind of live in this country, and really prefer that we watch out for ourselves first.
And if it was a requirement that was always being followed it might be awesome. Reality-they change the title of the job, and put someone incorrectly titled into it.
BTW-NOT as common at big companies like Apple, Intel, etc
But we are talking politics, which ARE supposed to be about the country. Not the business.
I too am in the business. I suspect at a company similar to yours. Possibly even the same one. And where do the mistakes come from? Well...yup about equal. This is incredibly complex stuff, and we eat people like pez til we find keepers.
Depends on how its done. Yeah a complete drop would do what you describe. But drop the H1-B visas available every year, and add in a exemption for a employee being paid 150K a year (tied to inflation, AND as per the going rate), and suddenly....if you truly need that guy, and theres no visa for him. Pay him 150K or more, problem solved. 150K is not unreasonable for skilled folks.
I didn't know your company or partner companies hired H-1B workers as well. Out of curiosity, what's the reason they hire foreign citizens instead of American citizens? Are they cheaper, better, or what? Hiring foreign citizens certainly comes with some hassles.
Is he working now? Or has he spent the last seven years unemployed? If he's unemployed again, you need to ask some hard questions. If he needs certificates then he's really playing in amateur hour. None of the great companies you know, or are upcoming care about the certs, they might crack the door by a millimeter, but what you do, how you do it, and why you do it that way are will blow away some onion skin in the first 5 minutes.
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If you read my post properly, you would have noticed that I said he was unemployed for 10 months ---7 YEARS AGO. Pay attention!
He most certainly is working.
You don't know what goes on in the entire IT sector. Please don't assume otherwise.
Once again, you do show hostility towards American citizens who have been displaced by H1-Bs. That's something that's very hard to stomach. Americans come first and foremost. We owe H1-Bs absolutely nothing. In fact, the whole program needs to be scrapped as it is causing a lot of hurt for American citizens.
Have you ever been unemployed? I'm guessing that it has never happened to you. That's why you have no compassion for those who have been displaced by H1-Bs.
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