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Originally Posted by michiganmoon There is plenty of blame to go around, but I 100% agree that PC BS is part of the problem.
When I, as a teacher, have to argue with a black student that is telling me that "hard work does not increase the chances for success" because he is black...then we have a serious problem in society.
If hard work does not increase your odds of success, due to racism, then there is no reason to work hard. Not working hard increases the odds of failure. Failure reinforces the original notion that you have been held back due to racism. It is a self-fulfilling and self-defeating prophecy.
Some of the best talent in the world goes to waste with kids (of all races) who don't try hard. Teach kids about hard work, success, perseverance - not victimhood. So many smart kids don't develop their brains the way they could IMHO.
Furthermore, PC BS, means you can't even honestly discuss the issues in the community like single parent households. Statistics say that kids in single parent households are more likely to drop out of school, wind up in prison, wind up in poverty as adults, and wind up as single moms or dead beat dads...but you can't point this out or it may offend single moms. Single mothers have a tough job, which is why we need to reinforce support for them and families.
The two posts above that are spelling out how to improve lives instead of dwelling on causes and perpetuating their woes. One a teacher telling how, and the other an example of someone who lifted herself up by working hard to excel.
My parents did not graduate high school, but they made sure my brother and I graduated high school. My two boys graduated college. Hard work can raise people up.[/quote]
yes, but unfortunately, people want to play victim and do not want to work hard....I've been working since I was 13 years old.....my mother never took food stamps or any kind of welfare...people back then were loyal and dedicated to paying their debts, not like today....we've lost a moral fabric within society....and I'm sure back then you had people taking advantage of our systems, but let me tell you, it was considered something one didn't do.
we don't have a race issue, we have a humanitarian issue....that we all need to change....and when society finally figures that out, perhaps it will be better.
for the longest time, society has been dwelling on "the Government" taking care of us, and look at what has happened....when members of society work against each other, you have chaos and rivalry.....if you clean up crime, all the rest falls into place....
but this country, has a lot of cleaning up to do.
Just b/c crime hasn't hit certain areas where you live, doesn't mean it's not going to.....I live in a small town and with all the illegals moving in, crime is rampid....and when I say illegals, I mean of all countries....
I personally feel white people should stop negating the fact that being black is looked down upon in society moreso on a subconcious level in todays society, especially as it relates to the US. Whites need to recognize that yes, black people do succeed, but we succeed with far more obstacles in our way that the average white person.
I several problems with this. You automatically assume and assert a premise that says experience as a black person is more difficult than a white person. "Black people have more obstacles". I believe people have unique experiences that are not quantified by racial generalities. Further, the obstacles I would imagine you would present are things like "driving while black". Which mind you is frustrating and ignorant but is it really fair to call it an obstacle? I bet 99.9 percent of the black population goes 99.9% of their life not experiencing this "driving while black" "obstacle". Further, it automatically assumed the cop pulled you a black person over because of race, just like it was automatically assume a white cop shot a black kid because he was black. This is just one example of the "obstacles" privilege proponents present.
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Also, whites IMO need to especially be cognizant of the issue of the day - police brutality and should admit that racism is highly visible in our criminal justice system in particular and work with black people instead of victim blaming to get equal treatment under the law and in sentencing for all people in this country.
You think Muslims are all terrorist? Should we be especially cognizant of Muslims? How about this....there is valid empirical evidence to suggest that black people disproportional commit more crime. Should we as a society....or better yet, should we as whites be cognizant about black people? The point is, profiling based empirical evidence is flat out illogical. Do I think there are bad and racist cops out there, yes, I do. Should I have an unsubstantiated and irrational fear of them? No because the reality of it is, brutality is relatively rare occurrence. Further, nothing about skin color should make me cognizant of anything. Because I'm white does not mean I need to pay attention to something. You automatically assume I'm not an objective person....
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Just wanted to state on the above, especially the bold that you actually proved what many posters have said in regards to being black being correlated to having a more negative experience or outlook in life.
There you go with the generalities again. 70% of blacks dont live in poverty.
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In 1960 over 50% of black people lived in poverty.
Guess what white poverty was?
Now look at 1970 and beyond. Notice how the poverty rates became static for the most part with increase and decrease occurring at the same exact time as other racial groups. This directly proves that poverty rates today are largely predicated on economic activity rather than oppression. The same gap has remained for 50 years. Why does white poverty follow black poverty? This is clear evidence of the ineptness of poor people of any color to pull them selves up from the generational impact of poverty, not racism. You can not honestly site here and say that racism and discriminatory practices have not been reduced significantly in the past 50 years, yet there is no dramatic decrease in poverty rates of black people. This proves that race has little to no impact on the current maladies that face impoverished people or we would of seen a clear closing of the gap....yet the only time significant movement occurs, it occurs for all racial groups. One could argue that the increase and decreases due to economic activity is more substantial for protected groups....I would counter that with the fact there are less black people thereby making any single black person more significant than any single white person. In other words, it takes 100 white people to make up 1% of the population and only takes 10 for the black, so, obviously the spikes are going to be more volatile than that of a higher sample size.
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Many whites, maybe you included feel that we as black people are always blaming your non-slave owning ancestors for black woes.
It has nothing to do with you blaming or not blaming white people. It simply a flawed and illogical concept. This is the aggravation I have when discussing privilege with proponents....you ignore the reasons I give for disputing the concept and instead beat a straw-man revolving around me being ignorant of the concept or having some sort of physiological or emotional dissent.
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That is not the case. We are stating to you that the system of white supremacy is one that stigmatizes black people as "less than" whites and that people today still believe that black people are "less than" whites.
I do not think this is the case. I think some black people think white people think less of blacks than white. Are there people going around in white hoods in Alabama today? Yeah but are they indicative of society in general, no. While I dont deny there are racist out there, I am rather confident its not to the extent you think it is. I should know right or are you going to pretend to know how the entire white race operates at a collective level. (hint: we dont operate at collective level)
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If the majority of blacks lived in poverty in 1910 then it makes sense that no matter how many blacks "work hard" today (and I honestly do feel that "working hard" is not the key to financial success in many fields, success primarily depends on "who you know" and poor black people just don't know enough people to give them a break or opportunity to career advancement) black people will always have a rather large gap in achievement compared to whites because whites have not had to deal with the racial stigmatization that blacks still have to contend with.
Why is it so important that your struggle is quantified as harder than a white persons? With that said, how do you know what its like to be white? Do you know for sure your struggles are worse than what a random white person experiences in his day to day life? You cant measure it. You make a lot of assumption of what whites dont have to deal with. Here is the point of contention: I do not think its logical, objective or reasonable to pretend we know how other people experience life and that is exactly what you are doing.
Lastly, you do not seem to understand why the poverty rate does not change outside of economic boom or bust times. Its not based on some inherent quality like the color of your skin. Its based on the generational social issue that get passed from one generation to the next. We know this because its obvious society has changed for the better in regards to racism and discrimination over the past 40 years, yet we have seen no substantial decrease in poverty for any group.
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The basis of the thread is that whites need to admit and acknowledge the system of white supremacy not that their ancestors owned slaves.
What about the white people who are impoverished to the tune of about 8 million more than blacks? Do they have to admit and acknowledge this superiority to make you feel better? I digress, their suffering is not even close to the suffering you've experienced as black person. Finally, the issues you think race has a significant impact on, can be, in most cases, attributed to other environmental considerations.
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You, as someone who does not acknowledge that there is a system of white supremacy in this country are indeed "responsible" for its continued existence.
This is a unwarranted assumption fallacy: The fallacy of unwarranted assumption is committed when the conclusion of an argument is based on a premise (implicit or explicit) that is false or unwarranted.
and
Affirming the consequent – the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true; if A, then B; B, therefore A
and
Correlation proves causation (*** hoc ergo propter hoc) – a faulty assumption that correlation between two variables implies that one causes the other
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I personally think that "reparations" should come in the form of medical care, especially mental health care and not money.
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I also feel that one of the major contributors to out of wedlock births in the black demographic and America at large is the EITC (earned income tax credit). It gives people large sums of money, some over $10K for staying single (and filing "head of household") and not getting married and I know from many people (and mostly non-black people) I have worked with that they won't get married because it will affect their "tax refund" and housing.
Yep, the EITC does not address the causes of persistent poverty so its not going to do much in the way of changing the result.
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I wish I could say this was engaging but it appears you've read about privilege but failed to apply critical thinking skills. I admit, the privilidge concept sounds good but when you get into its logical underpinnings, it proves to be illogical. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the methodology proponents use and submit calls to action are exactly the same as the methodology used to argue in favor of racial profiling.
Example 2:
Labeling someone a "criminal," and treating that person as such, may foster criminal behavior in the person who is subjected to the expectation, thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy
Labeling someone as privileged and treating that person as such may foster privileged behavior in the person who is subjected to the expectation, thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
You sound frustrated....but why? It's because you basically want to protect the image and reputation of whites, and by association, yourself. This was my point. Either the reputation of whites has to suffer or the reputation of blacks have to suffer, to understand this continued inequality. White society does not want to be associated with wrong doings and white society does not have their stature tainted as the product of wrong doing. You can only feel SUPERIOR in a race if it has been a FAIR RACE, where everyone has had an equal chance. The desire to hold on to the subconscious belief in superiority makes white society argue that things are essentially fair.....when they are not.
As I pointed out before. If one is in a race and keeps loosing, it will effect them psychologically. If one is in a race and keeps winning, it will effect them psychologically. The former may likely internalize their inferiority while the latter may likely internalize their superiority.....and hence later the psychology helps self reinforce those beliefs/feelings outcomes in the future.
Black people need to know that "Its not them". We are not a "flawed people". We are not intrinsically inferior. That is what the truth reveals. Now, that does not mean that we are looking for reparation or looking to put whites down, but rather, RESTORE CONFIDENCE IN OURSELVES.....in our "blackness" and hence with restored confidence in an era of reduced racism, we will find more success because we will believe it possible. However, we will not continue to rise collectively, despite reduced racism, while being insecure in our "blackness".
You consistently make references to this "insecurity" and somehow have equated that to a premise that Blacks can only succeed when Whites fail. That's an internal problem on your part and can't be "fixed" by the Collective White people. I never once have a thought about being "white" - you get up every morning with the thought - "I'm Black". You are correct - the psychologically of that is a problem, but it's one that "I" can't "fix". You are not "flawed" or "inferior", nobody thinks that but YOU.
The worst of it is that you are probably teaching this to your own children.
I've read this entire thread and still can't figure out what it is that you want - other than you somehow believe that you can only succeed in life if the White people fail, so that you can somehow in your own mind ...... Feel Superior. I don't know (thank goodness) and single person of any color that has such a skewed viewpoint of Life and Success. There are several here that agree with you, I feel sorry for all of you - not because of the color of your skin, but because of this strange mind-set of your own inferiority that you can't seem to escape - worse, don't appear to want to escape. It's like a bizarre Comfort Zone.
The technology of the 20th century changed the relevance of wealth but it has not changed the insane greed and the economic power games that Europeans want to play.
We could have used technology to implement a 3-day work week and eliminated poverty in the US by 1990. But instead we use technology to play status games. We make useless variations in crap that depreciates rapidly and must be replaced thereby creating employment. It is a useless treadmill creating pollution.
So now we have the global warming issue. We can't stop and we can't keep it up.
White Racism is NOT a lifestyle choice that blacks' choose.
i live and work in the deep south, mid mississippi, some claim the most racist part of united states, but i don't see racism, yes i hear offer stupid fricken........., but its alway something the black community brought on to themselves. the white population don't wake up claiming, how can we screw the black population today, now, we don't even think about it. we think about work, our kids, what for dinner, tax april 15, but everything we see with the black population they have done unto themselves. so if the black community having problems with life, then why don't they help themselves, put the basket ball down and open a book.
You consistently make references to this "insecurity" and somehow have equated that to a premise that Blacks can only succeed when Whites fail. That's an internal problem on your part and can't be "fixed" by the Collective White people. I never once have a thought about being "white" - you get up every morning with the thought - "I'm Black". You are correct - the psychologically of that is a problem, but it's one that "I" can't "fix". You are not "flawed" or "inferior", nobody thinks that but YOU.
The worst of it is that you are probably teaching this to your own children.
I've read this entire thread and still can't figure out what it is that you want - other than you somehow believe that you can only succeed in life if the White people fail, so that you can somehow in your own mind ...... Feel Superior. I don't know (thank goodness) and single person of any color that has such a skewed viewpoint of Life and Success. There are several here that agree with you, I feel sorry for all of you - not because of the color of your skin, but because of this strange mind-set of your own inferiority that you can't seem to escape - worse, don't appear to want to escape. It's like a bizarre Comfort Zone.
That is not true. I have never stated that for blacks to succeed that whites must fail. Aside from being incorrect, it's also an embellishment. As GwillyfromPhilly pointed out, he advocates a redistribution of wealth. A redistribution of wealth does not mean that the wealthy become poor so that the poor can become wealthy. It just means that things become more equitable.
That having been said, the ONLY thing that I characterized as "zero sum" is BLAME. Whites do not have to loose for blacks to gain. In other words, whites do not have to be subtracted from for blacks to be added to, in terms of economics. If for centuries this system allocated cookies 3 for you, none for us, 3 for you, 1 for us, 3 for you, 2 for us the accrued resultant is that you will have more cookies than us at the end of the day, even if you start allocating them equally now. Hence, I would not advocate taking cookies from whites, but rather, 3 cookies for blacks and 1 for yaw, as the equal and opposite force to when it favored you. That does not take anything from you.
If people are living with the belief that all is fair....and can observe, through various means, that blacks tend to be disproportionately represented in negative phenomenon, like poverty, crime, etc, how does the subconscious mind process that? Whether one consciously process that or not, the subconscious is always processing sensory inputs to promote survival. Hence, the subconscious processes the belief that "all is fair", "every race has equal chance the past does not hinder the present" the subconscious is bounded by it's logic to assume that blacks are "lesser" in ability than others in some way significant.
The technology of the 20th century changed the relevance of wealth but it has not changed the insane greed and the economic power games that Europeans want to play.
We could have used technology to implement a 3-day work week and eliminated poverty in the US by 1990. But instead we use technology to play status games. We make useless variations in crap that depreciates rapidly and must be replaced thereby creating employment. It is a useless treadmill creating pollution.
So now we have the global warming issue. We can't stop and we can't keep it up.
I personally feel white people should stop negating the fact that being black is looked down upon in society moreso on a subconcious level in todays society, especially as it relates to the US. Whites need to recognize that yes, black people do succeed, but we succeed with far more obstacles in our way that the average white person.
Also, whites IMO need to especially be cognizant of the issue of the day - police brutality and should admit that racism is highly visible in our criminal justice system in particular and work with black people instead of victim blaming to get equal treatment under the law and in sentencing for all people in this country.
I do recognize the being black is looked down upon in society. If we are being intellectually honest, nobody looks down on being black in America moreso than blacks themselves, which is why we are constantly having the discussion. Day after day, stats jammed in everyone's face about how horrific it is to be black, so of course everyone with eyes who reads it will at some point at least ponder that "horrific-ness", and if you happen to be black are constantly being told by the media, the race hucksters, the government and your own community just how horrible it is, eventually you come to believe it as well. If I had to distill all of the messages aimed at me, Standard American White Guy, concerning the Standard American Black Person, it isn't to view that person equally but to feel sorry for them, sorry for guilt I am supposed to have for something I never did, and wonder how I can help them because I am told they cannot succeed without my help, favor, assistance and shame. You aren't supposed to view me equally either. You are supposed to see me as the enemy, the harbinger of your economic doom, the reason for any unpleasantness in your life, the barrier you must overcome, etc.
That's what we are both told every minute of every day. I am supposed to cower in shame, and you're supposed to be angry at me for not doing it sooner. The sooner both of us ignore that crap, the faster we see each other as equal, and the faster we do that, the better off we both are. I'm already doing my part. I look at everyone equally until they give me reason not to, in either direction. I will wait until I have more knowledge before I look at you favorably or unfavorably. I'll let your words and actions dictate that, but at the opening bell, I'll view you as my equal because I have no reason not to.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
I personally think that "reparations" should come in the form of medical care, especially mental health care and not money.
I also feel that one of the major contributors to out of wedlock births in the black demographic and America at large is the EITC (earned income tax credit). It gives people large sums of money, some over $10K for staying single (and filing "head of household") and not getting married and I know from many people (and mostly non-black people) I have worked with that they won't get married because it will affect their "tax refund" and housing.
Well, at least medical care seems more useful than handing out bags of cash. I'll grant that. And you make a fine point on the evils of a tax code that promotes out-of-wedlock birth and non-married parenting models. Prior to all of the government's targeted help for black America beginning in 1965, blacks had fewer out-of-wedlock borths than any other race, and a lower divorce rate. The "old sage" black Americans like Walter Williams, Bill Cosby, thomas Sowell, Ward Connerly et al...they grew up poor, but in a house with mom and dad, and it was the rule even in the housing projects (Williams, Cosby) and "bad" neighborhoods (Sowell, Connerly). But in 1965, the government came to help. We now have half a century of proof of how poorly it works.
But I give you credit for at least one new idea with the healthcare thing, and for bucking the trend and wanting less meddling from government instead of more. At least those are ideas rooted in some manner of thinking other than "down with whitey, pay me!!"
i live and work in the deep south, mid mississippi, some claim the most racist part of united states, but i don't see racism, yes i hear offer stupid fricken........., but its alway something the black community brought on to themselves. the white population don't wake up claiming, how can we screw the black population today, now, we don't even think about it. we think about work, our kids, what for dinner, tax april 15, but everything we see with the black population they have done unto themselves. so if the black community having problems with life, then why don't they help themselves, put the basket ball down and open a book.
racism in 1950:
Racism in 2015:
Question.......in this metaphor....can you tell why it's much easier to see racism (the praying mantis) in 1950 vs 2015?
Racism in the past had no fear of predators, no social ostracism, no economic penalty...hell...it was Americas pet. Today, racism has predators in the form of laws, social rejection, moral injury and even economic penalty. Thus, racism today must "blend" in with the environment to avoid detection. That is why people do not see it today like in the past. Yes....its less egregious than in the past.....but it's still alive and well.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-15-2015 at 12:23 PM..
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Finally, the issues you think race has a significant impact on, can be, in most cases, attributed to other environmental considerations. 
