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High crime areas are like areas of the body that are in pain. It's an indication that something is wrong...and the something that is wrong might not be were the pain is emanating from. For example, a pain in the arm may be a symptom of a heart condition.
And where does that "something is wrong" come from? Who created that "something is wrong" situation?
There are also other types of body pain that requires physical therapy. The therapist can show you how to do the exercise to relieve the pain. But it's up to the patient to follow through.
While I'm at it, why don't you look at the history of white slavery? Did you know that black slaves had ten times more value than white Irish slaves? Did you know that there were more white slaves than black slaves?
Do some research on white slavery in America (and in general) and then explain to me who the Irish should "blame"?
Colors do not oppress colors, individuals oppress individuals. Your refusal to accept that is why you are the problem indentured.
I totally agree with that. White individuals oppressed black individuals, over the centuries, creating different aggregate socioeconomic resultants for the collective of individuals of the said races.
And where does that "something is wrong" come from? Who created that "something is wrong" situation?
There are also other types of body pain that requires physical therapy. The therapist can show you how to do the exercise to relieve the pain. But it's up to the patient to follow through.
While I'm at it, why don't you look at the history of white slavery? Did you know that black slaves had ten times more value than white Irish slaves? Did you know that there were more white slaves than black slaves?
Do some research on white slavery in America (and in general) and then explain to me who the Irish should "blame"?
Slavery still exists to this day - it's called human trafficking.
I don't expect a response from you because you have ignored two posts by me proving you wrong.
I am not going to entertain this obfuscation. If we all had the same situations, we would all be in the same position....unless one want to assume some races are superior to others. Regardless of what you say, that is what it boils down to. If people have been oppressed like us in the time and space as blacks, they would be in no better or worse shape than blacks are in today. If they are in better shape...its because they had it better. If they are in worse shape its because they had it worse. PERIOD!
I am not going to entertain this obfuscation. If we all had the same situations, we would all be in the same position....unless one want to assume some races are superior to others. Regardless of what you say, that is what it boils down to. If people have been oppressed like us in the time and space as blacks, they would be in no better or worse shape than blacks are in today. If they are in better shape...its because they had it better. If they are in worse shape its because they had it worse. PERIOD!
So the choices ones makes (or that a culture makes) has nothing to do with their outcomes, it is all their environment? Interesting worldview you have there.
I totally agree with that. White individuals oppressed black individuals, over the centuries, creating different aggregate socioeconomic resultants for the collective of individuals of the said races.
We aren't a collective in the real world, only in the minds of academics.
So the choices ones makes (or that a culture makes) has nothing to do with their outcomes, it is all their environment? Interesting worldview you have there.
Choices they make in response to what....their oppression? If any group is put in the same situation, race does not influence their ability to make better or worse choices. Does culture? Yes, but culture is pliable to the effects of oppression. Thus, culture as a symptom of oppression can impact the choices people make. Blacks came here with African Culture.....we do not have African culture today....so obviously our culture was born in oppression.
That being said, whites are not willing to take ownership of this truth,
the fact that you never owned a slave or that you are not racist does not cancel the damage done by whites who were racist and who did own slaves.
There was so much speculation/extrapolation passed off as fact in your post, it is almost not worth responding to. However I will make a couple of quick points based on a few sentences.
First whites are not going to accept responsibility for a collective, generalized white description. The Brits were not only purchasers and keepers of slaves, they also did the same with other groups, some of whom were Irish. So the Irish being both slaves and indentured servants cannot be lumped in with their common oppressors.
Additionally not only did some whites never own slaves, they fought against it. A lot of white blood has soaked the earth on behalf of blacks, yet their ancestors are lumped in with all whites in your diatribe.
Furthermore, many whites and their ancestors came to this country after slavery was over. The list goes on, but your sweeping generalizations do not account for the aforementioned in your general condemnation.
Choices they make in response to what....their oppression? If any group is put in the same situation, race does not influence their ability to make better or worse choices. Does culture? Yes, but culture is pliable to the effects of oppression. Thus, culture as a symptom of oppression can impact the choices people make. Blacks came here with African Culture.....we do not have African culture today....so obviously our culture was born in oppression.
So nothing is the fault of the individuals and members of the culture, got it. It is all external forces, black people are like puppets in the hands of their surroundings, dependent on the sovereign will of their masters. am I getting it right?
I do recognize the being black is looked down upon in society. If we are being intellectually honest, nobody looks down on being black in America moreso than blacks themselves, which is why we are constantly having the discussion. Day after day, stats jammed in everyone's face about how horrific it is to be black, so of course everyone with eyes who reads it will at some point at least ponder that "horrific-ness", and if you happen to be black are constantly being told by the media, the race hucksters, the government and your own community just how horrible it is, eventually you come to believe it as well. If I had to distill all of the messages aimed at me, Standard American White Guy, concerning the Standard American Black Person, it isn't to view that person equally but to feel sorry for them, sorry for guilt I am supposed to have for something I never did, and wonder how I can help them because I am told they cannot succeed without my help, favor, assistance and shame. You aren't supposed to view me equally either. You are supposed to see me as the enemy, the harbinger of your economic doom, the reason for any unpleasantness in your life, the barrier you must overcome, etc.
That's what we are both told every minute of every day. I am supposed to cower in shame, and you're supposed to be angry at me for not doing it sooner. The sooner both of us ignore that crap, the faster we see each other as equal, and the faster we do that, the better off we both are. I'm already doing my part. I look at everyone equally until they give me reason not to, in either direction. I will wait until I have more knowledge before I look at you favorably or unfavorably. I'll let your words and actions dictate that, but at the opening bell, I'll view you as my equal because I have no reason not to.
Well, at least medical care seems more useful than handing out bags of cash. I'll grant that. And you make a fine point on the evils of a tax code that promotes out-of-wedlock birth and non-married parenting models. Prior to all of the government's targeted help for black America beginning in 1965, blacks had fewer out-of-wedlock borths than any other race, and a lower divorce rate. The "old sage" black Americans like Walter Williams, Bill Cosby, thomas Sowell, Ward Connerly et al...they grew up poor, but in a house with mom and dad, and it was the rule even in the housing projects (Williams, Cosby) and "bad" neighborhoods (Sowell, Connerly). But in 1965, the government came to help. We now have half a century of proof of how poorly it works.
But I give you credit for at least one new idea with the healthcare thing, and for bucking the trend and wanting less meddling from government instead of more. At least those are ideas rooted in some manner of thinking other than "down with whitey, pay me!!"
Just wanted to say on the first bolded portion that I agree somewhat. But, I don't necessarily feel that black people look badly upon themselves moreso than general society. I think that the majority of blacks feel the same way about blackness as the general society does and that they are ashamed of their blackness and the shaming part in many ways does make it worse. I also feel that a large amount of black people have what I call an "inferiority" complex. Whereas they view white people as being better than them and other ethnicities as better than them and that they have to "prove" to white people that they can be "just as good." And I think that that complex is fueled by many whites stating that same thing that the blacks think basically "If you did (insert positive thing like get higher education, "work harder," stop doing a specific thing) then we wouldn't see black people as (insert negative thing)." You see this line of thinking all over the place and especially here on CD and even in this very thread where the majority of detractors stated that "race doesn't matter today" and that "poverty is poverty" and they do not acknowledge that being black is a seperate, unique situation in this country that does have an effect one's job prospects and run ins with law enforcement especially. This is why I stated that whites are the main ones who need to change the attitudes about what it means to be black. Unfortunately, too many black people are trapped in an inferiority complex and won't listen to us black people (and I will even include Indentured Servant in this mix as his ideas and musings are not ones that are usually associated with blacks who have an inferiority complex) who don't have said complex. Many whites also try to shun us who do not fall in line with the thinking that we need to "assimilate" into mainstream America. I have had people curse me out and call me all kinds of a "black b ! tch" because when speaking of black people, I refused to try to make them comfortable with my blackness or for me to have an attitude of trying to please them. We are labeled as "nationalist" or "Pan Africans" or other such nonsense when all I am is a black woman who is well versed in both white supremacy and black inferiority complexes and who is well aware of the affect racism can have on the psyche of black people especially.
On the 2nd bold in regards to out of wedlock births, that is actually not true. Black people have always had a higher out of wedlock birth rate than whites and it has usually been 2-3 times the rate of whites. I also am not one who believes that single parenthood is a direct contributor to specific social ills, especially criminality as if that was the case, then crime rates amongst whites would have risen instead of declined (just like they have for blacks) over the past 25-30 years when the white out of wedlock birthrate has increase on a percentage basis more than the white rate since the late 1980s/1990s. I do think though that it is important to have solid familial relationships in the rearing of children and I know too many longtime boyfriend/girlfriends of all backgrounds who admit that they don't/won't get married over their tax return being taken away. I also know a lot of older couples who waited until their kids were grown to get married, people who have been together 20-25 years because they didn't want to "mess up" their "refund."
Quote:
Originally Posted by billydaman
I several problems with this. You automatically assume and assert a premise that says experience as a black person is more difficult than a white person. "Black people have more obstacles". I believe people have unique experiences that are not quantified by racial generalities. Further, the obstacles I would imagine you would present are things like "driving while black". Which mind you is frustrating and ignorant but is it really fair to call it an obstacle? I bet 99.9 percent of the black population goes 99.9% of their life not experiencing this "driving while black" "obstacle". Further, it automatically assumed the cop pulled you a black person over because of race, just like it was automatically assume a white cop shot a black kid because he was black. This is just one example of the "obstacles" privilege proponents present.
Driving while black leads to lots of arrest, psychological trauma, and false imprisonment, so I do see it as an "obstacle" faced by black people. I am a college educated, married woman and I have been arrested and jailed for 3 days on charges that were dismissed and where I had to sue a local police department. My pet was killed by police indirectly as they sent my dog to the pound where it was euthanized because I didn't go and get her within 48 hours due to me being jailed for no reason. My child, who was in the car was traumatized and to this day is mistrustful of police. My situation is not uncommon for black people, neither is the "DWB" phenonmenon and for you to believe that black people don't have as many obstacles to overcome as non-black persons, you are are free to do believe as such and I won't argue with you about it, but you are wrong and you like many others just don't want to admit that race is an issue in this country in the 21st century.
You think Muslims are all terrorist? Should we be especially cognizant of Muslims? How about this....there is valid empirical evidence to suggest that black people disproportional commit more crime. Should we as a society....or better yet, should we as whites be cognizant about black people? The point is, profiling based empirical evidence is flat out illogical. Do I think there are bad and racist cops out there, yes, I do. Should I have an unsubstantiated and irrational fear of them? No because the reality of it is, brutality is relatively rare occurrence. Further, nothing about skin color should make me cognizant of anything. Because I'm white does not mean I need to pay attention to something. You automatically assume I'm not an objective person....
There is not empirical evidence suggesting that blacks commit more crime, but there is empirical evidence that proves that black people are arrested more than any other ethnicity and due to that black people are under more scrutiny for crime that whites. Another poster already stated that they lived in a poor white area in Kentucky and how they dont' have police around them, harrassing them and arresting them. If they did, whites would be committing way more crime on paper than blacks. All the crime statistics you know about are based on arrest information and black people are harrassed more often by arresting agencies and therefore would automatically be overrepresented in the crime statistics.
There you go with the generalities again. 70% of blacks dont live in poverty.
Guess what white poverty was?
Now look at 1970 and beyond. Notice how the poverty rates became static for the most part with increase and decrease occurring at the same exact time as other racial groups. This directly proves that poverty rates today are largely predicated on economic activity rather than oppression. The same gap has remained for 50 years. Why does white poverty follow black poverty? This is clear evidence of the ineptness of poor people of any color to pull them selves up from the generational impact of poverty, not racism. You can not honestly site here and say that racism and discriminatory practices have not been reduced significantly in the past 50 years, yet there is no dramatic decrease in poverty rates of black people. This proves that race has little to no impact on the current maladies that face impoverished people or we would of seen a clear closing of the gap....yet the only time significant movement occurs, it occurs for all racial groups. One could argue that the increase and decreases due to economic activity is more substantial for protected groups....I would counter that with the fact there are less black people thereby making any single black person more significant than any single white person. In other words, it takes 100 white people to make up 1% of the population and only takes 10 for the black, so, obviously the spikes are going to be more volatile than that of a higher sample size.
Look at 1960 and before and compare white and black poverty rates. You ignored the fact that I agreed with you earlier that poverty begets poverty. Over 60% of black people lived in poverty prior to the passage of the CRA. For you to now claim that generational black poverty, whereas more blacks lived in poverty more recently than whites, is not an issue is hypocritical on your part. Stick with your initial hypothesis regarding poverty being a generational condition.
It has nothing to do with you blaming or not blaming white people. It simply a flawed and illogical concept. This is the aggravation I have when discussing privilege with proponents....you ignore the reasons I give for disputing the concept and instead beat a straw-man revolving around me being ignorant of the concept or having some sort of physiological or emotional dissent.
You exhibit an emotional dissent throughout this thread. I am not being emotional, just FYI. I am stating facts and my info is based upon facts.
I do not think this is the case. I think some black people think white people think less of blacks than white. Are there people going around in white hoods in Alabama today? Yeah but are they indicative of society in general, no. While I dont deny there are racist out there, I am rather confident its not to the extent you think it is. I should know right or are you going to pretend to know how the entire white race operates at a collective level. (hint: we dont operate at collective level)
Our society operates at a collective level and our society values whiteness and places more positive connotations on being white versus being black.
Why is it so important that your struggle is quantified as harder than a white persons? With that said, how do you know what its like to be white? Do you know for sure your struggles are worse than what a random white person experiences in his day to day life? You cant measure it. You make a lot of assumption of what whites dont have to deal with. Here is the point of contention: I do not think its logical, objective or reasonable to pretend we know how other people experience life and that is exactly what you are doing.
it is not important to me. It is a fact. I do know for a fact that my struggles are worse than a random white person because they don't have to deal with the negative connotations of being a black person in America. Whites do deal with poverty and crime and all sorts of negative things in our society, same as black Americans. But black Americans also have to contend with being black and being black in America is an obstacle to take into consideration in our society.
Lastly, you do not seem to understand why the poverty rate does not change outside of economic boom or bust times. Its not based on some inherent quality like the color of your skin. Its based on the generational social issue that get passed from one generation to the next. We know this because its obvious society has changed for the better in regards to racism and discrimination over the past 40 years, yet we have seen no substantial decrease in poverty for any group.
LOL, here you went back to your first premise, which I referenced earlier. Prior to 1960, over 60% of black people lived in poverty. We have more people who have to contend with generational poverty on a percentage level than whites. Those people prior to 1960 who were poor and black were kept poor 90% because they were black and had no other opportunities for advancement. Again, my mother was born in the 1960s. I am one generation removed from poverty. The majority of middle class black people in my age group - mid 30s are only one generation removed from poverty. It will take IMO at least 2-4 generations for blacks to catch up to a "normal" poverty level that is experienced on a percentage basis by white America.
What about the white people who are impoverished to the tune of about 8 million more than blacks? Do they have to admit and acknowledge this superiority to make you feel better? I digress, their suffering is not even close to the suffering you've experienced as black person. Finally, the issues you think race has a significant impact on, can be, in most cases, attributed to other environmental considerations.
I didn't say whites in poverty don't suffer due to poverty. They do, but if/when they decide to get out of poverty, they will not have the obstacle of blackness in their way.
This is a unwarranted assumption fallacy: The fallacy of unwarranted assumption is committed when the conclusion of an argument is based on a premise (implicit or explicit) that is false or unwarranted.
and
Affirming the consequent – the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true; if A, then B; B, therefore A
and
Correlation proves causation (*** hoc ergo propter hoc) – a faulty assumption that correlation between two variables implies that one causes the other
Yep, the EITC does not address the causes of persistent poverty so its not going to do much in the way of changing the result.
----------------
I wish I could say this was engaging but it appears you've read about privilege but failed to apply critical thinking skills. I admit, the privilidge concept sounds good but when you get into its logical underpinnings, it proves to be illogical. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the methodology proponents use and submit calls to action are exactly the same as the methodology used to argue in favor of racial profiling.
Please see responses above in blue. Also, please note that white prvilege is not based upon the assumption that all whites are well off. The "privilege" is that you are not black and don't have the negative associations of blackness that a black person has to contend with in our society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by triple8s
That is your perspective. Maybe if you didn't work so hard trying to be a victim and stop seeing YOURSELF as inferior, your perspective wouldn't be so distorted about white people.
While I'm at it, please go through this thread that has over 39,000 posts and explain to me just how the successful black people mentioned in the thread succeeded during the times that they did, the majority of whom were success stories well before the civil rights movements.
If the people profiled in the posts thought the way you did, especially with the "slave mentality" you demonstrate, they wouldn't have ever reached the heights they did and be recognized for their success.
I find this response odd. Nowhere has Indentured Servant stated that he is a victim of anything. I am black. I know that being black is looked upon negatively in our society. That doesn't make me a victim of anything. It makes me a realist and IMO better prepared to tackle those obstacles than a black person with an inferiority complex who is always blaming "whitey" for their issues. When you know, as I said my grandmother told me that as a black person you have to work "10 times harder to get the same things as an average white person" then you are prepared to do as such and won't let anything stand in your way.
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