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Old 04-27-2015, 08:11 AM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,781,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emcee squared View Post
Since when are those places liberal?
They aren't.

He should have said Scandinavia, but that would mean acknowledging that liberals have the right idea.
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Old 04-27-2015, 08:45 AM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,561,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
That's a cultural convention that has no bearing on the political system. Perhaps in western democracies women are not considered property, but the thing is, Libertarianism opens the door for a big change in that department.

Here's something from a Libertarian site:

The Libertarianism FAQ



Libertarians don't endorse chauvinistic/racist culture norms, but they do nothing to discourage them, and they fail to recognize that women may require maternity leave or that employers might discriminate based on gender, race, religion, etc. This also means employers can discriminate simply on the fact that it is POSSIBLE for a woman to become pregnant, completely undermining about the last 70 years of women's rights, and probably a great deal of the civil rights fought for starting in about the 1960s.

Libertarians are not officially racist, but the apathy they show towards ethnic minorities, women, and homosexuals opens the door for every single form of discrimination you could possibly imagine, and probably worse.

I doubt that a woman setting herself on fire would be considered a crime in a Libertarian society, and they've made it pretty clear that the social inequalities that would drive her to such an act are not a priority... or as CD posters would say, the idea that women need different considerations than men is obviously a conspiracy by the left to ruin the social fabric and pervert the laws of nature.



I'm talking about a community or state within the libertarian nation that wants to practice Sharia law, not some takeover of the central government.
Great illustration for the phrase "jump into conclusions"!
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Old 04-27-2015, 08:53 AM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,561,042 times
Reputation: 8094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
That's a cultural convention that has no bearing on the political system. Perhaps in western democracies women are not considered property, but the thing is, Libertarianism opens the door for a big change in that department.

Here's something from a Libertarian site:

The Libertarianism FAQ



Libertarians don't endorse chauvinistic/racist culture norms, but they do nothing to discourage them, and they fail to recognize that women may require maternity leave or that employers might discriminate based on gender, race, religion, etc. This also means employers can discriminate simply on the fact that it is POSSIBLE for a woman to become pregnant, completely undermining about the last 70 years of women's rights, and probably a great deal of the civil rights fought for starting in about the 1960s.

Libertarians are not officially racist, but the apathy they show towards ethnic minorities, women, and homosexuals opens the door for every single form of discrimination you could possibly imagine, and probably worse.

I doubt that a woman setting herself on fire would be considered a crime in a Libertarian society, and they've made it pretty clear that the social inequalities that would drive her to such an act are not a priority... or as CD posters would say, the idea that women need different considerations than men is obviously a conspiracy by the left to ruin the social fabric and pervert the laws of nature.



I'm talking about a community or state within the libertarian nation that wants to practice Sharia law, not some takeover of the central government.

I take one example here, a woman needing maternity leave. First of all, who should be responsible for your children? You, your spouse, the employer, the government or the society? If you say it's the society or the government, then I have a long list of things that I think you should do to raise your children.

Let's assume it's your, meaning your and/or your spouse', responsibility to bear and raise children. Shouldn't the woman plan for the maternity leave with her partners? Shouldn't the woman negotiate with her employer to see what she could do for her maternity leave?
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Old 04-27-2015, 09:06 AM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,781,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
I take one example here, a woman needing maternity leave. First of all, who should be responsible for your children? You, your spouse, the employer, the government or the society? If you say it's the society or the government, then I have a long list of things that I think you should do to raise your children.

Let's assume it's your, meaning your and/or your spouse', responsibility to bear and raise children. Shouldn't the woman plan for the maternity leave with her partners? Shouldn't the woman negotiate with her employer to see what she could do for her maternity leave?
How does maternity leave in any way translate to parents not being fully responsible for their child's upbringing? Giving people time to raise their children isn't even remotely the same thing as telling them how to do it.

And my entire point was that libertarianism is inherently sexist because employers could simply refuse to hire women for important positions due to the fact that they could get pregnant at some point in the future. Even if the woman insisted that she had no intention of doing so, there would be a risk.

Even if you're a mega-corporation, taking on any perceived risks isn't something that makes good business sense.
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Old 04-27-2015, 09:08 AM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,781,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Great illustration for the phrase "jump into conclusions"!
Comments like these contribute nothing to the discussion.
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:40 AM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,561,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
How does maternity leave in any way translate to parents not being fully responsible for their child's upbringing? Giving people time to raise their children isn't even remotely the same thing as telling them how to do it.

And my entire point was that libertarianism is inherently sexist because employers could simply refuse to hire women for important positions due to the fact that they could get pregnant at some point in the future. Even if the woman insisted that she had no intention of doing so, there would be a risk.

Even if you're a mega-corporation, taking on any perceived risks isn't something that makes good business sense.

Maternity leave is something parents need to prepare for before they decide to have children. It should not be a burden for employers or the society.

Secondly, every employee has risks not just someone getting pregnant. Personally I'd think people quitting is more risky than a woman wants to have maternity leave. Your entire notion that employers wouldn't hire women because they may get pregnant is not true. Even today employers can do that with or without laws protecting women. They just can't fire them when women are getting pregnant.
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:25 PM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,781,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Maternity leave is something parents need to prepare for before they decide to have children. It should not be a burden for employers or the society.

Secondly, every employee has risks not just someone getting pregnant. Personally I'd think people quitting is more risky than a woman wants to have maternity leave. Your entire notion that employers wouldn't hire women because they may get pregnant is not true. Even today employers can do that with or without laws protecting women. They just can't fire them when women are getting pregnant.
Both women and men can quit.
Only women can get pregnant.
Declaring pregnancy and babies a 'burden' only proves my point.

Also:
Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:48 PM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,561,042 times
Reputation: 8094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
Both women and men can quit.
Only women can get pregnant.
Declaring pregnancy and babies a 'burden' only proves my point.

Also:
Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's a burden to the employers and to the society. Didn't we agree children are the responsibilities of their parents not the employers, government or the society?
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:59 PM
 
698 posts, read 587,595 times
Reputation: 1899
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
From the founder:

"“We have decided to start from scratch and show how little state is needed to make society work."

Translation: our tyranny will be less harsh than previous tyranny in other nations.
LOL, so now you can be oppressed by a wealthy dictator that owns everything and can never be replaced instead of an elected government. Libertarianism is a great theory that is doomed to fail if it was ever actually tried anywhere.

For most people it would be feudalism and they would be the serfs. On the bright side, it would probably have low wage service jobs, video games and weed, so for most libertarians in the US not much would change.
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Old 04-27-2015, 01:00 PM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,781,052 times
Reputation: 2418
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
It's a burden to the employers and to the society. Didn't we agree children are the responsibilities of their parents not the employers, government or the society?
Libertarian America: where people are a burden to their own society.

So tell me, if children are merely a burden that get in the way of all the work that is to be done, then why exactly would an employer ever want to hire a woman?
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