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However, science tells us something different. It tells us that sexual orientation is an immutable, unchangeable trait. It tells us that it isn't any different from gender or race. Sexual orientation, like gender identity, is at the core of who a person is. Even if a gay man never has a relationship with another man he is still gay. Therefore, refusing to serve them or allow them to marry because of an immutable characteristic is in fact discrimination on the same level as race or gender discrimination. Conversion therapy does not work because you cannot change an immutable characteristic. Even ex-gay "success stories" will usually admit they still experience some degree of unwanted same-sex attraction. If the conservatives were right and it was a choice, why would that be?
Until conservatives are willing to accept the science that says sexual orientation is an immutable trait, they will not support LGBT rights. They will cling to the idea that its a choice to justify their discrimination and disgust.
First of all, "science" has not demonstrated that the desire to engage in homosexual conduct is genetically based. On that, you are flatly mistaken, regardless of what someone told you on MSNBC or some extreme far-left blog.
Second, to the extent that this is a scientific hypothesis, which it certainly is, science has also come to the same conclusions about gambling, alcoholism, and of course other sexual tendencies like pedophilia, bestiality, etc. These are all temptations that people who have them appear to have from early days, and in most cases, those temptations may be denied and constrained, but they usually never entirely go away.
We are all tempted without any choice that we can discern, but we choose to act on our temptations. The temptation is not the sin, the action is. It is not the desire that is the sin, as most people have very limited controls over their desires. It is the fulfillment of those desires that is the sin.
Virtually nobody is refusing to serve homosexuals based solely on their sexual "orientation", as I am confident you are well aware. As far as homosexual "marriage," there is no such thing. There never has been and there never will be, this current bizarre homosexual "marriage" fad notwithstanding.
Whether the desire of homosexuals is immutable or not, I do not know. However, there is no solid science that backs that assertion up the way that you have cavalierly insisted that it does.
Nevertheless, just like other types of temptations, such as gambling, alcoholism, and of course other sexual tendencies like pedophilia, bestiality, etc.; just because the temptation is there, that does not justify the conduct. Just because we feel like doing something, that does not make it right or alleviate its status as a sinful behavior.
This is an example of the fundamental misunderstanding conservatives have regarding homosexuality. People choose to try Heroin and they like the high. They then become addicted so their body has to have it. They can choose to stop heroin, go through the withdrawals, and be free from it. Gay people on the other hand are what they are. Even if they never have a same-sex relationship, they are still attracted to the same sex.
Same way a person that has constant sexual urges can't simply just make it go away by sitting before another human being with the same flaws and chains and whips in their closet....
A craving for a side piece or a big booty isn't learned. Men don't learn feet fetishes as a kid because it is learned. Nobody is taught how to internalized a good pair of feet covered in stockings while dipping in and out of their high heeled shoe....
First of all, "science" has not demonstrated that the desire to engage in homosexual conduct is genetically based. On that, you are flatly mistaken, regardless of what someone told you on MSNBC or some extreme far-left blog.
I think the American Psychiatric Association is a reputable, unbiased source. The Family Research Council isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713
Nevertheless, just like other types of temptations, such as gambling, alcoholism, and of course other sexual tendencies like pedophilia, bestiality, etc.; just because the temptation is there, that does not justify the conduct. Just because we feel like doing something, that does not make it right or alleviate its status as a sinful behavior.
Every other wrong Christian-conservatives compare homosexuality to harms the person or somebody else. Murder is taking somebody's life. Gambling and alcoholism harms the individual. Pedophilia harms children. Bestiality harms the individual and is animal cruelty. Homosexuality between consenting adults harms nobody. And yes, I am aware of the statistics put out by the Family Research Council (an official hate group) on this subject regarding the disease and shortened life expectancy of homosexuals. My guess is you would see similar results if you took a look at the most promiscuous scenes in the heterosexual world as well.
The prohibition against homosexuality is purely religious in nature, similar to the Jewish prohibition against pork, which means it has no place in the laws of a secular nation.
First of all, "science" has not demonstrated that the desire to engage in homosexual conduct is genetically based. On that, you are flatly mistaken, regardless of what someone told you on MSNBC or some extreme far-left blog.
Mmm... science in quotations. This is surely going a good direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713
Second, to the extent that this is a scientific hypothesis, which it certainly is, science has also come to the same conclusions about gambling, alcoholism, and of course other sexual tendencies like pedophilia, bestiality, etc. These are all temptations that people who have them appear to have from early days, and in most cases, those temptations may be denied and constrained, but they usually never entirely go away.
Well, a person with alcoholic tendency who does not drink will never be an alcoholic. A gay man who never sleeps with a gay man is still gay.
As for pedophilia and bestiality, yeah, it's similar to homosexuality and also heterosexuality. The reason we don't accept pedophilia is because having sex with children hurts children, while having sex with a man doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713
We are all tempted without any choice that we can discern, but we choose to act on our temptations. The temptation is not the sin, the action is. It is not the desire that is the sin, as most people have very limited controls over their desires. It is the fulfillment of those desires that is the sin.
I don't recognize sin, especially sins that were thought up of people who had no knowledge of any modern science. As for moral argument, most people can only point to a moral issue against homosexuality from religious reasons, like books that say things like salt water doesn't actually exist or a flood killed everyone because God loves us and the lack of evidence for this flood is because science isn't reliable. Everyone knows vaccines causes autism. I'm not an idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713
Virtually nobody is refusing to serve homosexuals based solely on their sexual "orientation", as I am confident you are well aware. As far as homosexual "marriage," there is no such thing. There never has been and there never will be, this current bizarre homosexual "marriage" fad notwithstanding.
Marriage is a social contract, and it does exist. Sorry to break it to you, most states grant it and because one state does, they all are legally required to recognize it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713
Whether the desire of homosexuals is immutable or not, I do not know. However, there is no solid science that backs that assertion up the way that you have cavalierly insisted that it does.
There's more evidence for that view than the obviously incorrect view that it's a choice.
The fact is science really proves that individuals are born with a strong predisposition toward a certain sexual orientation and that sexual orientation is usually fixed at a very early age.
The bottom line is by the time you know someone is gay there ain't no changing it.
First of all, "science" has not demonstrated that the desire to engage in homosexual conduct is genetically based. On that, you are flatly mistaken, regardless of what someone told you on MSNBC or some extreme far-left blog.
Second, to the extent that this is a scientific hypothesis, which it certainly is, science has also come to the same conclusions about gambling, alcoholism, and of course other sexual tendencies like pedophilia, bestiality, etc. These are all temptations that people who have them appear to have from early days, and in most cases, those temptations may be denied and constrained, but they usually never entirely go away.
We are all tempted without any choice that we can discern, but we choose to act on our temptations. The temptation is not the sin, the action is. It is not the desire that is the sin, as most people have very limited controls over their desires. It is the fulfillment of those desires that is the sin.
Virtually nobody is refusing to serve homosexuals based solely on their sexual "orientation", as I am confident you are well aware. As far as homosexual "marriage," there is no such thing. There never has been and there never will be, this current bizarre homosexual "marriage" fad notwithstanding.
Whether the desire of homosexuals is immutable or not, I do not know. However, there is no solid science that backs that assertion up the way that you have cavalierly insisted that it does.
Nevertheless, just like other types of temptations, such as gambling, alcoholism, and of course other sexual tendencies like pedophilia, bestiality, etc.; just because the temptation is there, that does not justify the conduct. Just because we feel like doing something, that does not make it right or alleviate its status as a sinful behavior.
This has got to be the most intelligent and logical post of the day!
!!
In order to reproduce you need a male and female tells that biology does not think homosexuality is normal. The problem is human rights have granted people the right to think they have the rights to anything. What is next people marrying animals or marrying inanimate objects?
In order to reproduce you need a male and female tells that biology does not think homosexuality is normal. The problem is human rights have granted people the right to think they have the rights to anything. What is next people marrying animals or marrying inanimate objects?
Yeah, human rights are stupid.
And if you're argument revolves around 'what's next' it means you have nothing concrete to argue against what's actually being discussed. Otherwise you wouldn't bring up the other things.
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