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The poster didn't say they had no problem with groping or feeling or touching. They said that these things had happened to them in school, and when reported, what actions the school took. It does not become consensual because a person doesn't feel they were harmed. If my nephew takes a dollar from my purse without my consent, it is theft. Just because I don't choose to report it to the police, and feel that simply correcting him is sufficient to deal with the situation does not make it consensual.
Thank you, DC. You responded very well - better than I could have.
It takes a crime, and then filters that crime through the different perspectives of the people involved.
I have never veered from the assertion that Josh Duggar sexually molested his sisters. I've never described his activity as just mild or inappropriate. At the same time, I understand that for the people actually involved, for Josh, his sisters, his parents, that each person has their own perception, their own truth about what happened. And they are the ones involved. Their perceptions are not "wrong" for them. Their perceptions are their "truth". And the whole point of professional counseling is to help a person understand their own truths. To deal with problems that come from their perceptions. The outside world's perceptions are not an unassailable truth. The outside world often brings their own biases, their own slant, to their version of what happened. And I think that in this case, this is very true. There are those who hate the Duggars for the opposition to homosexuality (and I am, and have always been, very much for same-sex marriage, I see no harm in homosexuality at all), who hate the Duggars for having so many children, who hate the Duggars for their goody-two-shoes portrayal of their lives. And that hatred informs their perspective.
I don't agree with the Duggars, but I don't hate them. In the United States, where we have freedom of religion and freedom of speech, there will surely be many people I will disagree with. Disagreement does not equate to hatred in my world. I think hating someone requires an expenditure of energy I would rather use elsewhere. But I will speak out with those I disagree with. I'm not shy by any means. One of the truly great things about participating in these discussions is that people share their unique perspectives. And because they are generous enough to do so, I gain a better understanding of them, of the issues, and of the world in general.
Except we have laws and a criminal justice system for a reason. Plenty of times, crimes have been reported but a victim or the perpetrator or anyone else involved finds the offense to be minor, not such a big deal for whatever reasons, or has their own opinion or bias about it, but the law says it is a big deal. Like for example domestic abuse victims. Wives who go back to their abusive husbands and make excuses for them and never learn. It's illegal to beat up your spouse, but the wives may not see it that way. Does that suddenly mean it's okay? Is their position okay because they say it is? It's why we have the law. There needs to be a set of rules so we don't rely on how people choose to interpret incidents on an individual basis. The Duggars live an unconventional life as members of a cult that does not value women as anything more than baby makers. Perhaps their bias is getting in the way of seeing this situation for how serious it actually was. Their responses to the situation weren't normal and are probably not recommended.
They don't get a pass from breaking the law just because they view the situation differently than anyone else. The law's the law. The law says you can't sexually assault someone. He sexually assaulted 5 people. Fact. Yes, he was a minor, yes his upbringing probably contributed to his actions, but he still molested 5 people. That we know of. At the least, CPS or whatever the organization is in Arkansas should have investigated the family and welfare of the children and Josh probably should have been sent to counseling - real counseling. It should not have been kept a secret for a year before Jim Bob decided to tell someone outside the family circle.
Personally, I don't care what the Duggars say about homosexuality or anything else. They have that right. People who are advocates for the LGBTQ community can be equally intolerant of opinions of people like the Duggars, so it work both ways. Intolerance all around. So I don't care who thinks what. Their beliefs aren't clouding my opinion that molestation is wrong and that the Duggars responded to the situation wrongly. I find sexual assault of any degree to be disgusting and I think the way the parents handled this situation was disgusting. The fact that they tried so hard to cover it up and keep it quiet, from the beginning, proves they knew Josh was wrong in doing what he did. They just didn't want there to be consequences. Understandable - he's their kid. It's a tough situation. He was underage. But he still did something very wrong and they did not handle it right.
Last edited by JerseyGirl415; 06-12-2015 at 02:38 PM..
Except we have laws and a criminal justice system for a reason. Plenty of times, crimes have been reported but a victim or the perpetrator or anyone else involved finds the offense to be minor, not such a big deal for whatever reasons, or has their own opinion or bias about it, but the law says it is a big deal. It's why we have the law. There needs to be a set of rules so we don't rely on how people choose to interpret incidents on an individual basis. The Duggars live an unconventional life as members of a cult that does not value women as anything more than baby makers. Perhaps their bias is getting in the way of seeing this situation for how serious it actually was. Their responses to the situation weren't normal and are probably not recommended.
They don't get a pass from breaking the law just because they view the situation differently than anyone else. The law's the law. The law says you can't sexually assault someone. He sexually assaulted 5 people. Fact. Yes, he was a minor, yes his upbringing probably contributed to his actions, but he still molested 5 people. That we know of. At the least, CPS or whatever the organization is in Arkansas should have investigated the family and welfare of the children and Josh probably should have been sent to counseling - real counseling. It should not have been kept a secret for a year before Jim Bob decided to tell someone outside the family circle.
Personally, I don't care what the Duggars say about homosexuality or anything else. They have that right. People who are advocates for the LGBTQ community can be equally intolerant of opinions of people like the Duggars, so it work both ways. Intolerance all around. So I don't care who thinks what. Their beliefs aren't clouding my opinion that molestation is wrong and that the Duggars responded to the situation wrongly. I find sexual assault of any degree to be disgusting and I think the way the parents handled this situation was disgusting. The fact that they tried so hard to cover it up and keep it quiet, from the beginning, proves they knew Josh was wrong in doing what he did. They just didn't want there to be consequences. Understandable - he's their kid. It's a tough situation. He was underage. But he still did something very wrong and they did not handle it right.
Much of what you've said is bias. By categorizing the Duggars as living in a cult, you marginalize them. You don't have any in-depth knowledge of the value women have in the Duggar family. Clearly, since they value Cousin Amy, who is not a baby-maker, women have value beyond baby-making. And yes, without a doubt, the Duggar perspective has an inherent bias.
And yes we have laws. But there is no legal action being taken. What does that tell you? It seems that back in 2006, DHS did investigate the family. That would be the reason why Josh Duggar sued the DHS, wouldn't it? I mean, if there wasn't an investigation, if no actions were taken by the DHS, then Josh Duggar would have had no reason to sue.
And I was one of the first to criticize the family for not getting counseling. However, the family says they did get professional, certified counseling. Certainly, no counselors are going to speak up, since counselors have a professional, ethical obligation to guard the privacy of the family. Not to mention, no counselor wants to become a target for media, for the curious, for the curious hacker, by coming forward to say they provided counseling.
I think most people are disgusted by sexual assault. I think that when something like this happens, there will ALWAYS be criticism by someone about how it was handled. The Duggars knew there would be consequences. And, as someone who's been the victim of sexual assault, I can understand wanting to be the one shaping those consequences. They didn't act like it was nothing. They removed Josh from the home. They sent him away to get help. Whether the rest of us think that help was enough or right, they did try to get him help. And since there haven't been any incidents reported since, that help may have been effective. If, indeed, the Duggars did get professional counseling, those counselors may have been able to thoroughly assess Josh and provide sufficient support so that he was able to deal with his issues. That, we will not know, because professional counselors aren't in the business of providing counseling and then releasing their notes, conclusions, treatments, etc, to the general public to satisfy our inappropriate curiosity.
All I really want, in the end, is for the Duggars, and the girls especially, to be healed and free to move forward with their lives. That's all.
Much of what you've said is bias. By categorizing the Duggars as living in a cult, you marginalize them. You don't have any in-depth knowledge of the value women have in the Duggar family. Clearly, since they value Cousin Amy, who is not a baby-maker, women have value beyond baby-making. And yes, without a doubt, the Duggar perspective has an inherent bias.
And yes we have laws. But there is no legal action being taken. What does that tell you? It seems that back in 2006, DHS did investigate the family. That would be the reason why Josh Duggar sued the DHS, wouldn't it? I mean, if there wasn't an investigation, if no actions were taken by the DHS, then Josh Duggar would have had no reason to sue.
And I was one of the first to criticize the family for not getting counseling. However, the family says they did get professional, certified counseling. Certainly, no counselors are going to speak up, since counselors have a professional, ethical obligation to guard the privacy of the family. Not to mention, no counselor wants to become a target for media, for the curious, for the curious hacker, by coming forward to say they provided counseling.
I think most people are disgusted by sexual assault. I think that when something like this happens, there will ALWAYS be criticism by someone about how it was handled. The Duggars knew there would be consequences. And, as someone who's been the victim of sexual assault, I can understand wanting to be the one shaping those consequences. They didn't act like it was nothing. They removed Josh from the home. They sent him away to get help. Whether the rest of us think that help was enough or right, they did try to get him help. And since there haven't been any incidents reported since, that help may have been effective. If, indeed, the Duggars did get professional counseling, those counselors may have been able to thoroughly assess Josh and provide sufficient support so that he was able to deal with his issues. That, we will not know, because professional counselors aren't in the business of providing counseling and then releasing their notes, conclusions, treatments, etc, to the general public to satisfy our inappropriate curiosity.
All I really want, in the end, is for the Duggars, and the girls especially, to be healed and free to move forward with their lives. That's all.
There is no legal action being taken because the statute of limitations ran out.
While Salon is not my preferred news source, I am very happy to see this news. Those ATI home school conferences could be a source of abuse to other children. Furthermore, I read the speaking fees for J.B. and M. Their speaking fees are unbelievable! I use to arrange national and western U.S. talks and speaking fees for one double fellowship, NIH trained M.D. I'm physically ill thinking how much more JB and M make compared to physician experts teaching other physicians.
J.B. gets $10 - 15 K alone to speak. JB & M receive $15 - 25 K together. For them to change how they parent, they have to stop speaking and getting these high fees.
Here's the link to them cancelling the Colorado ATI Home School speaking.
While Salon is not my preferred news source, I am very happy to see this news. Those ATI home school conferences could be a source of abuse to other children. Furthermore, I read the speaking fees for J.B. and M. Their speaking fees are unbelievable! I use to arrange national and western U.S. talks and speaking fees for one double fellowship, NIH trained M.D. I'm physically ill thinking how much more JB and M make compared to physician experts teaching other physicians.
J.B. gets $10 - 15 K alone to speak. JB & M receive $15 - 25 K together. For them to change how they parent, they have to stop speaking and getting these high fees.
Here's the link to them cancelling the Colorado ATI Home School speaking.
They get (got) paid more because that is what the market was willing to pay. The level of fees they get has no bearing on their ability to parent, unless it was so little they couldn't feed their family.
I thought you were a licensed clinical psychotherapist who interviewed and evaluated sexual assault victims, what type of double fellowship MD were you arranging conferences for? Some types of speakers, regardless of the number of degrees, are a dime a dozen.
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While Salon is not my preferred news source, I am very happy to see this news. Those ATI home school conferences could be a source of abuse to other children. Furthermore, I read the speaking fees for J.B. and M. Their speaking fees are unbelievable! I use to arrange national and western U.S. talks and speaking fees for one double fellowship, NIH trained M.D. I'm physically ill thinking how much more JB and M make compared to physician experts teaching other physicians.
J.B. gets $10 - 15 K alone to speak. JB & M receive $15 - 25 K together. For them to change how they parent, they have to stop speaking and getting these high fees.
Here's the link to them cancelling the Colorado ATI Home School speaking.
I'm glad the entire ATI program has been brought out of the darkness and into the light of day. I hope it's the death knell for that women-hating curriculem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1
They get (got) paid more because that is what the market was willing to pay. The level of fees they get has no bearing on their ability to parent, unless it was so little they couldn't feed their family.
I thought you were a licensed clinical psychotherapist who interviewed and evaluated sexual assault victims, what type of double fellowship MD were you arranging conferences for? Some types of speakers, regardless of the number of degrees, are a dime a dozen.
Well - now we are seeing the other side of what the market is willing to pay. I'm guessing no one wants their name associated with the Duggars at this time.
I'm not very good at understanding legal definitions. Is someone willing to wade through these definitions of the various degrees of sexual assault in Arkansas and take a guess at which one(s) would apply to Josh Duggar?
They get (got) paid more because that is what the market was willing to pay. The level of fees they get has no bearing on their ability to parent, unless it was so little they couldn't feed their family.
I thought you were a licensed clinical psychotherapist who interviewed and evaluated sexual assault victims, what type of double fellowship MD were you arranging conferences for? Some types of speakers, regardless of the number of degrees, are a dime a dozen.
A very specialized, double fellowship trained, including one fellowship at NIH, Neurologist.
I know how much MDs made for talks and training others throughout the U.S.. Gee, maybe those speakers should have read up about ATI.
And your description of my professional licensure is close enough. I'm impressed. Scheduling talks was something I did as part of different work. One needs time away from sex offenders and victims!
YUCK! Have you seen this from TLC? I can't stand to watch it. I hope it's a podcast only. They are hearing from me again. Unless they put interviews with the Law Enforcement Officer, who had to assist the Investigating worker from the state of AR, there is nothing I want to see on tv from this family, or read etc. Their only chance to get the proper help they all need is by being off tv, no magazines, books etc.
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