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I just saw this edit. No, I didn't. You must have me confused with someone else.
You are right, I did. My apologies.
It started with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1
If InTouch still has the report up (which I hope was ordered to be taken down) the victims are pretty clear about what they felt he needed to do to indicate he was fixing what he had done and what they felt being accountable looked like. Would it be enough for me? No. But, I really feel that needs to be their call, not mine.
Which got followed by this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick
Why? Rather keep it all under wraps? The organization he is directing is teaching people that following Duggar-style lifestyles will prevent sexual assaults, a fact that is patently untrue (obviously). I think it is essential that it stays up unless you are saying it is untrue?
And just because I can I will post it again:
(edited out)
And I replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1
Because the identities of the victims, who were minors at the time and one who is still a minor, are clear. The victims, you know the people actually impacted by the act. It is absolutely jaw dropping how many people are so busy getting their hate on that they don't care that those girls are being re-victimized.
And you replied to my post with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus
Oh for pity's sake.
The victims have been paraded around on tv since they were minor children. That's why we know who they are. THE PARENTS revictimised them by being so bloody daft and self righteous in their deeply disingenuous humility as to do that in the first place.
They and all the elders, corrupt cops, and other supposed adult persons in their lives failed them. FAILED THEM.
Not us. You are seriously misplacing blame here. It rests with no one but Michelle and Jim Bob.
The bottom line is that I feel the report on the InTouch website needs to be removed. Yes, I know probably just about everyone and their brother has probably seen it but maybe some guy in Nepal won't get the opportunity if it's removed. But more importantly, it can't keep being re-found over and over and over.
__________________
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More people are attacking his faith and "lifestyle" then what he actually did and how it was handled.
I join others hoping Josh and Anna will turn to their faith and enter treatment. Some are concerned (elsewhere) that Josh may become suicidal. I don't think so and I certainly hope not. He alone can ask for the help of God or Jesus to understand the full extent of his actions, as he gets treatment by a psychotherapist qualified to treat a Sex offender.
For the record, no victim of his should have the same psychotherapist, should they ever be fortunate to see a trained and experienced professional.
I have no problem with anyone having faith. However, faith does not replace Sex offender treatment.
Running down their family is not going to make them feel better. Josh and the parents are still a very active, very involved part of the girls' family. Strangers rehashing old news (to them) is just stirring bad memories from the past.
Just stirring bad memories from the past? Old news?
Honestly, it's quite likely these girls, at least the ones old enough to remember, have not forgotten, and that it still torments them in some way or another prior to it coming out in public, to this day.
I don't think they've much choice in whether Josh or their parents are involved and active in their family.
No, I am speaking of the Quiverfull movement, which I specifically mentioned in my post. That is a sect of Christian fundamentalists (some would say cult) who believe that women are subservient to men, that each household should have an omnipotent ruler (known as the "father"), and while procreation is going on at rabbit speed in the parents' bedroom, the children are not taught anything about their sexuality, sight of the human body is repressed, all interactions between young adults are monitored by adults who subscribe to this belief system, and mindless obedience is demanded. That, to me, sounds more like ISIS than Christianity.
Not everyone raised in a sexually repressive atmosphere turns to deviant sexual behavior and some children survive cults of all types with their individuality in tact. But it's especially hard for girls to learn to say NO in an environment where they are taught to be obedient to males and they might not even understand what being molested means. But it's a lot easier and more likely for people to develop healthy psyches in environments with balanced attitudes toward sexual equality and human sexuality — which it's certainly possible for people to provide their children WHILE practicing Christianity.
Personally, I believe the Family Research Council was using Josh Duggar to get publicity and gain additional access to politicians representing conservative areas. And I believe TLC was using the whole family in a capitalist company's unending worship of the profit motive. But Mr. and Mrs. Duggar are adults and are responsible for this brood they grew for whatever unusual motive. They know what kind of behavior was going on behind closed doors in their household. They knew they had secrets to hide from TLC. But they just couldn't resist the money and personal adulation. And as a result they are subjecting their brainwashed daughters to suffer further. It's tragic for Josh's victims and his parents should be ashamed of their behavior.
We have freedom of religion in this country. Which is great. You're a Christian, fine. You're a Muslim, fine. We also have freedom from religion, so you're an atheist, that's fine, too. But once the practices of ANY belief system cross over into behavior that is against the laws of the land, that's not fine. By manipulating the local justice system to cover up their son's actions, not-fine is where the Duggars are today and deserve to remain.
Excellent post, Jukesgrrl. I'm not sure I can give you another Rep point.
You get all the salient points in your post.
Some don't seem to understand the difference between Accountability and hate. The Duggars lied to everyone about Josh. Their Facebook posts and tweets have deeply hurt people they don't know ( and haven't seen on tv, magazines, books and more). Duggars are being held accountable by adults who have to be accountable for their kids and themselves.
There are some really excellent posts here from people who understand JB and M put their kids in the camera's eye in many formats.
About judging other's lifestyles. I viewed a video of Michelle's views on modesty. Her beliefs are pretty much how I was raised.
I was also raised in a fundamentalist church that taught girls it was our duty to make sure we didn't make males think bad thoughts or do bad things. God made us more in control of our lust so it was our job to stop males who tried to get sexual. I believed the church whole heartedly and believed my mother when she reinforced it. I believed that if everyone believed this way we would live in a perfect sin-free, crime-free world. I bought into the whole package hook line and sinker.
That didn't keep it from harming me deeply.
It caused PTSD. It caused trust issues. It caused depression. It caused anxiety. It caused social anxiety. It probably caused Borderline Personality.
One of the biggest problems is teaching girls that they have any control over ANYone's thoughts or actions. Nobody can control anyone else. No matter what you do, no matter how modestly you dress, if someone is a molestor they will try it. If someone wants to make sexual comments they will do it even if a women is wearing a burka. You can't make someone, especially a child, responsible for someone else's thoughts or actions without causing harm.
The girl trying to wrap her head around a male being sexual to them even though they are doing everything right is one thing that causes damage. There is no logical answer, but church and parents are teaching that there is, and that she had some part in causing the male to think/speak sexually. The brain has to make sense of it and does so even if it has to resort to contorted thinking. Often the brain concludes that you DID have some part in it. You take some tiny little inconsequential thing and say that was it. It really WAS my fault. I shouldn't have smiled at him. I shouldn't have joked with him. etc. etc. etc.
Another problem with telling the victim she had some part in the act is that it creates a deep feeling of shame and humiliation. So deep that you don't want anyone to know, because if they know then they will know that you brought this crime on yourself. They'll know what a horrible sinful person you are. Because of that, many victims don't report this kind of crime at all whether it's incest, or molestation by someone outside the family.
Even though I completely bought into the fundamentalist religious teachings at the time, I do wish someone had sat me down and told me it wasn't my fault. I wish I had known there was another point of view. I wish they had told me I was the victim of a heinous crime not the perpetrator. Maybe it would not have ocnvinced me at the time. I might have argued and told them they were wrong. But just having that idea spoken to me, having it somewhere in my consciousness, almost certainly would have helped me see earlier where my emotional problems started, helped me understand that non-religious counselors would not judge me negatively because of it. It would have allowed me to get help sooner than I did. I wasted a whole lot of time feeling guilty and sinful and pretty much wasting my life.
I can't imagine too many girls, even those with deeply held faith and prayer and religious beliefs, could come through incest or molestation unscathed when they're being told that God thinks they did something to bring it on themselves. And worse, they believe that they've done something that helped ruin someone else's life. Yes, they feel guilty that their attacker's morals are besmirched and that he could get into trouble and it's all the victim's doing.
There are certain lifestyles that are so harmful that you know very few people can make it thru unscathed. We expect the justice system to protect kids from physical harm and abuse. Why not emotional abuse? Because I can tell you for a fact the emotional abuse of the belief system that I was raised in did so much more harm to me than the physical abuse ever did.
I don't feel like I did choose that lifestyle, either. I was born into it. I was told from the time I was in the womb that this was how I was going to believe and how I was going to live my life.
The belief system I was raised in told you to act happy, to keep sweet no matter what happened because that's what God expected. God gave you this "challenge" and you're expected to deal with it cheerfully. No one would ever have known what I was going thru or how damaged I really was. I haven't watched the show enough to know if that's what the Duggar family religion teaches, but if so then we can't judge how happy they are by how they act.
If I was given the chance to change only thing about my life, it would be to be born to non-fundamentalist parents. That's it. I spent the first 20 years of my adulthood trying to recover from my childhood. That's how much harm it did to me.
Okay this is probably completely disjointed, but I hope at least a few of the points make a little sense.
Thanks for sharing such deep insight from your personal experience, LillyLillyLilly. That took a lot of courage. I'm proud of you for stating what would have helped you. It sounds like you did see a psychotherapist later and were not only believed, you found out you weren't responsible for someone victimizing you.
I'm so sorry you were violated!!! I am proud of you for sharing what you have here. You will help others who aren't strong enough to tell their experience yet.
Take care of yourself.
MSR
Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 05-23-2015 at 10:23 PM..
The bottom line is that I feel the report on the InTouch website needs to be removed. Yes, I know probably just about everyone and their brother has probably seen it but maybe some guy in Nepal won't get the opportunity if it's removed. But more importantly, it can't keep being re-found over and over and over.
No need to apologize. I think we're going to have to fundamentally disagree here. I am sorry that the girls were outed, but I'm not sorry that the story is out. Enough of this horrible crap being swept under the rug. It doesn't do anyone any good to hide the truth, especially when you claim to be a moral authority. If no one had released the report, they would still be hiding it, pretending all was great. And that rarely works to anyone's benefit. Who knows, it may give some victims of incest a bit of comfort to know that even in a supposedly perfect family this can happen, and that they are not at fault.
Because that's really what all this is about. The girls, if they want to, don't have to hide it anymore. The worst has happened, and hopefully they can get on with their lives with the weight of this off their shoulders.
I was assaulted in high school, I had nothing to ashamed of either but I didn't report it. Not because I wasn't allowed to but because I just wanted it put behind me. And for YEARS my greatest fear was people finding out what happened. Truth is, I really don't want people who actually know me to find out to this day, almost half a century later. I don't want to discuss it with them and, regardless of what anyone says, I would still be embarrassed if I thought people knew. The only reason I can disclose here is because I am anonymous. If you published my story, with my name, you'd be re-victimizing me and I would be revisited by the trama. Identification of victims, especially victims who were minors at the time of the event, should strictly be the victim's choice. And no, you or society trashing the SOB who did that to me would not provide comfort. I'm just glad the world didn't think I needed to pay for the actions of my parents on top of everything else.
And, just to remind you, this discussion started because you questioned why I though InTouch should be made to removed the report from their website. Yeah, I am indignant when people appear to not care how this impacts the girls.
You STILL have nothing to be ashamed of Oldhag. Like any victim, you didn't want to be violated.
I hope you will re-read the posts of other victims here. They seemed to be more comfortable with themselves when they could finally tell someone about what happened. I'm sad for you, as I wonder if there were parts of your life you didn't get as you hoped, because of your concern of embarrassment.
I'm sorry you were violated as a teenager. No teen deserves abuse. No child or adult does either. What I think is terrific is the fact you can tell some of us, including other self-identified victims, here about what happened. That is something you probably haven't done very often previously.
I agree with you that as much as possible whether or not a victim tells others should be up to the victim. That being written, different things have to be done differently in families with incest and when perpetrators have had more than one victim. Many victims become perpetrators. There can't be secrets in a family where one child is valued more than the others. That allows more children or teens to become victims.
I hope you will continue to grow and learn in your own recovery. You and the other self-identified victims who posted would know best that sexual abuse or assault isn't forgotten just because a person becomes an adult.
I wish you the best as you continue on your journey of recovery. I hope you someday will trust someone in your life to tell what you've suffered in silence for decades. That is one of the many losses from sexual abuse or sexual assault: victims don't trust their own ability to pick trustworthy people as they had their trust shattered. It is something one can learn again. Thanks for trusting us.
I was assaulted in high school, I had nothing to ashamed of either but I didn't report it. Not because I wasn't allowed to but because I just wanted it put behind me. And for YEARS my greatest fear was people finding out what happened. Truth is, I really don't want people who actually know me to find out to this day, almost half a century later. I don't want to discuss it with them and, regardless of what anyone says, I would still be embarrassed if I thought people knew. The only reason I can disclose here is because I am anonymous. If you published my story, with my name, you'd be re-victimizing me and I would be revisited by the trama. Identification of victims, especially victims who were minors at the time of the event, should strictly be the victim's choice. And no, you or society trashing the SOB who did that to me would not provide comfort. I'm just glad the world didn't think I needed to pay for the actions of my parents on top of everything else.
And, just to remind you, this discussion started because you questioned why I though InTouch should be made to removed the report from their website. Yeah, I am indignant when people appear to not care how this impacts the girls.
Im sorry but its clear if you have such deep feelings of embarrassment (aka shame) you really haven't dealt with the abuse.
We don't know how this is going to impact them. Maybe some of them will remember to keep Uncle Josh away from their children. Maybe one or more will leave the cult and get real help. Maybe the younger children will have words to put with old buried memories and not feel crazy anymore. Maybe victim agencies will reach out to them and get them help. Maybe not.
As painful as it is, only good can come from shining light on a dark secret....especially for the victims.
My best friend was raised by religious fanatics like the Duggars. In her situation, her hypocrite of a father raped her when she was 11 and continued to molest her until she was 18. She prayed and prayed believing it was her fault and she brought it on. She was terrified to tell her mom although in later years she realized her mom probably knew but was in denial and in fear of her dad. She finally escaped to go to college.
Ironically, her whole family of religious zealots; aunts, uncles cousins, condemned her for going away to school because they felt college was no place for a God-fearing woman and she would be corrupted and shamed. Some of them actually disowned her. Her father forbade it at first but her mom pleaded for him to let her go. It was the one and only time her mom defied her dad and quite possibly it could have been that she may have threatened to tell the pastor of their church she knew what he had done to their daughter.
All her life my friend was scarred from her experience even though she went through intense therapy. It helped but she was never completely whole. That's why it sickens me when I think of the girls Josh Duggar molested. What kind of help did they receive to get over their trauma? Probably none other than being told to pray harder. They must live with whatever he did to them their whole lives and I will never believe that given the dogma they are being raised with, they won't carry a burden of guilt to some degree even though it is completely undeserved.
The fact that the Duggar family took it upon themselves to "take care" of the situation shows both their arrogance and ignorance. They are beneath contempt. Child molesters, even those who are children themselves need expert counseling. Were the Duggars so desperate that they wanted to keep this from leaking to the public they sacrificed the mental health of both their girls and their son by determining their ridiculous course of treatment by sending him to work on a construction site? Did they really believe they were so righteous they could "cure" their son of what is a mental illness about which they hadn't the least bit of knowledge?
I can imagine the terror those poor girls must have felt while living under the same roof with their own brother especially if their parents refused to take steps to protect them until it could not be hidden any longer. There is something wrong with parents who won't go to every length possible to keep their kids safe especially when they have the ability to do so.
I don't want to hear these parents say they are closer to God because of this. I want to hear them say the girls are being given psychological counseling from the youngest to the oldest for as long as necessary. Josh may feel okay about himself now, although I would question that, but the girls if their their mental health has not been taken care of, needs to be considered especially since now all this has been made public.
No need to apologize. I think we're going to have to fundamentally disagree here. I am sorry that the girls were outed, but I'm not sorry that the story is out. Enough of this horrible crap being swept under the rug. It doesn't do anyone any good to hide the truth, especially when you claim to be a moral authority. If no one had released the report, they would still be hiding it, pretending all was great. And that rarely works to anyone's benefit. Who knows, it may give some victims of incest a bit of comfort to know that even in a supposedly perfect family this can happen, and that they are not at fault.
Because that's really what all this is about. The girls, if they want to, don't have to hide it anymore. The worst has happened, and hopefully they can get on with their lives with the weight of this off their shoulders.
FinsterRufus,
Excellent points. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the victims of Josh Duggar and other incest victims draw a great deal of strength from what people are writing. The Duggar girls, unfortunately, have never had the opportunity to see their parents put them and their needs first. Hopefully, the tv show will be permanently cancelled and these young women can get professional help. If nothing else, I think we've seen examples here tonight of victims don't forget. Healing comes when the toxic stuff inside can be "puked out." Graphic, but most understand the analogy. Incest can happen anywhere. Hopefully more parents will touch bases with their kids and let them know they can tell the parents anything.
MSR
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