Ukraine through the eyes of American

[boxus]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

1. The lesson from 70 years ago is that war is always right around the corner in Europe and many of the German motivations early on were to unite "german speaking" areas into a "greater Germany"....the lessons go on from there with regards to how Russia treated it's gained territories during the war.

Not still understanding how that is a lesson. There were numerous factors leading to WW2, most importantly was the result of WW1. Is every military excursion now going to be compared to WW2? How about the numerous other military excursions with other reasons?

Originally Posted by Mathguy

2. Are you claiming that NATO is somehow behind this? lol. Which NATO actions in Europe have you taken offense to and why?

No, did not make that claim at all. I was referring to the "let's run and hide behind NATO" these little insignificant countries are doing, or want to do. NATO, the purpose of which it formed is long past, seems to be constantly changing its mission in order to justify its existence.

Bosnia, Serbia, and Kosovo I do not agree with NATO's involvement. I also do not agree with NATO's Libyan involvement. The bar keeps getting moved for NATO involvement, so this is just NATO in search of something to do to justify its existence.

Originally Posted by Mathguy

3. Of course it's not Russian propaganda. Perish the thought, they are just there to protect people lol. Pointing out the US does BS too over the years isn't an excuse for this specific topic. If you'd like to start a topic about the bad US dealings in central America (for example) then sure, by all means we can agree in that thread. However, that's not going on here. Instead I have you somehow trying to defend the Russians actions....weird huh?

No, my point was not to start a different topic, it was to point out that Russia's actions should be considered normal in the course of any nation attempting to establish regional hegemony. The hyper activity and panic type responses to this are over the top and ridiculous, because the responses seem to ignore other states that do/have done similar things. Sure, debate over it, but i find it hilarious that over the top, panicked response that has happened.

[boxus]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

Nobody is invading anybody via Ukraine due to the presence of nukes.

Sadly, nukes are the only thing to give serious pause to the European practice of murdering each other wholesale since the best weapon available was a flint spear.

List of conflicts in Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Warning, those are some looooooong lists.

I find Europeans hate when bringing up that the most peaceful time in European history was post-WW2. Despite the big bad Warsaw Pact, there was never a more peaceful period before. Europe was basically in constant war for centuries, over the last 2000 years at least. But for some reason, the entire ills of Europe, especially those of former east bloc states, is pinned on the USSR, now Russia, all forgetting the violent past before the USSR was a thought, and 20 years on after, sounds like those who keep blaming Bush for everything.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by boxus

I find Europeans hate when bringing up that the most peaceful time in European history was post-WW2. Despite the big bad Warsaw Pact, there was never a more peaceful period before. Europe was basically in constant war for centuries, over the last 2000 years at least. But for some reason, the entire ills of Europe, especially those of former east bloc states, is pinned on the USSR, now Russia, all forgetting the violent past before the USSR was a thought, and 20 years on after, sounds like those who keep blaming Bush for everything.

The peace only held because of nukes. Which takes us back to the history lesson that Ukraine forgot. I hope that explains what I was getting at. Even you derisively refer to the "little nations" in your other post and that attitude pervades. So that's why I felt Ukraine was dumb to risk wandering around like a chicken in a fox pen.