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I posted this as new topic (related to one of Charleston threads, link) to focus discussion on what I see as real causes of Sandy Hook, Charleston and most similar mass slayings.
I came to be conscious of this issue with McGovern's cashiering of Eagleton as a candidate in the 1972 campaign. This sorry episode is part of what started my path away from believing that liberals are necessarily good people. I had thought they really believed in love, help and compassion before that. I was 15 at time, and had bought into the "peace, love and helping hand" myth the liberals and Democrats presented themselves as adhering to. I believed strongly then, and still do believe, that people are capable of making something of themselves after facing obstacles. To have unceremoniously tossed such a person off the ticket showed a total lack of spine and leadership we see all too often.
In recent years there have been other mass shootings. Jared Lochner, James Holmes, Elliot Rodger (Santa Barbara) and Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook) come to mind. All of these people were obviously troubled. All of these people, except maybe Adam Lanza, were in regular contact with other students, teachers and administrators at their respective schools. Dylan Roof was in regular contact with friends, roommates and his parents. The societal problem is that it is easier to ignore people who are not sociable and not pleasant to be with than to engage them.
With this horrific church massacre, we are treated to lectures about gun control and about racism. People forget that both in this episode and Sandy Hook parents without any apparent mental health pathologies were the ones that obtained the weapons, not the mentally ill adult-aged children. Guns are everywhere so efforts to control legally purchased guns are doomed to futility. The most those laws will do is prevent people who would hurt no one from owning a gun.
Racism is similarly rife in society. But no one things that Dylan Roof was active in any anti-black political movement.
I suppose that liberals don't want to deal with mental health issues because that would mean getting involved with and spending real time with unpleasant people who don't make good social companions. That takes real time and effort. Learning more about those people and having people who are conscious of their ups and downs might prevent some, though certainly not all tragedies.
I am not saying it is the role of untrained people to be psychologists. Far from it. But when people are left friendless for long periods, and no one reaches out to them a tragedy will sometimes occur. It is our job, as a society, to know our neighbors, students and colleagues.
I feel that forming real communities will solve some of these problems. Trying to remove the implements of crime from people who are far beyond obeying any law of any kind is futile and useless.
It is far easier and more satisfying to inveigh against guns and racism. It feels good and typical for liberals that's what matters as was pointed out here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero
had nothing to do with race.... its just another case where liberals wont address the mental health issues of many out there
Liberals and Democrats are supposed to be the group caring about mental health and disadvantaged people. Well maybe not so much.
Liberals and Democrats are supposed to be the group caring about mental health and disadvantaged people. Well maybe not so much.
They cared too much. That's why no one is committed anymore.
They fought for the mentally ill to have just as much right to freedom as anyone else.
Outpatient care would solve all their problems.
Then again in Roof's case he could have been just taking the drugs off the Black market.
And it may have nothing to do with mental health.
They cared too much. That's why no one is committed anymore.
They fought for the mentally ill to have just as much right to freedom as anyone else.
Outpatient care would solve all their problems.
I forgot about that aspect of things. Involuntary commitment is impractically difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan
Then again in Roof's case he could have been just taking the drugs off the Black market.
And it may have nothing to do with mental health.
I mean "mental health" in the broadest sense of how people are performing in society. I don't necessarily mean that Dylan Roof's 20 year old acquaintance would have sat him down in a couch, psychiatrist style and asked for the contents of his dreams. I mean being alert to situations of concern and where necessary confronting and/or reporting the person.
I forgot about that aspect of things. Involuntary commitment is impractically difficult.
I mean "mental health" in the broadest sense of how people are performing in society. I don't necessarily mean that Dylan Roof's 20 year old acquaintance would have sat him down in a couch, psychiatrist style and asked for the contents of his dreams. I mean being alert to situations of concern and where necessary confronting and/or reporting the person.
His friends were also probably taking drugs recreationally.
One of them took his gun and gave it back because he was on probation himself.
People tend to socialize with others like themselves.
Most family members look the other way..delusional denial.
And others..they don't want to get caught up in the system and then live in fear of revenge.
I agree, and I think drugs are also a big part of the problem--both street drugs and prescribed drugs. We don't know yet if this guy was on any psych meds, although evidently he did have some kind of addiction to street drug of some kind. But most of these mass shooters do turn out to be on psych meds.
I've always observed that with many drugs there is a loss of judgment and inhibition. Even with booze, in younger days I did crazy, crazy stuff when drunk that I never would have done when sober.
I heard a nurse talking about this after the Aurora, CO shooting, and she explained that some of the drugs now in use are intended to suppress anxiety. But like most evolved traits, anxiety has a useful purpose--it inhibits you from doing something bad because of anxiety about the consequences. You might fantasize about smashing the guy who cut you off on the highway, but you don't do it because of anxiety over the consequences.
His friends were also probably taking drugs recreationally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz
I agree, and I think drugs are also a big part of the problem--both street drugs and prescribed drugs. We don't know yet if this guy was on any psych meds, although evidently he did have some kind of addiction to street drug of some kind. But most of these mass shooters do turn out to be on psych meds.
I've always observed that with many drugs there is a loss of judgment and inhibition. Even with booze, in younger days I did crazy, crazy stuff when drunk that I never would have done when sober.
I heard a nurse talking about this after the Aurora, CO shooting, and she explained that some of the drugs now in use are intended to suppress anxiety. But like most evolved traits, anxiety has a useful purpose--it inhibits you from doing something bad because of anxiety about the consequences. You might fantasize about smashing the guy who cut you off on the highway, but you don't do it because of anxiety over the consequences.
Somehow I think mental health is more important than drugs. When I was in college I experimented, no question. And many of my friends quite a bit more. But none of them hurt anyone.
They cared too much. That's why no one is committed anymore.
They fought for the mentally ill to have just as much right to freedom as anyone else.
Outpatient care would solve all their problems.
Then again in Roof's case he could have been just taking the drugs off the Black market.
And it may have nothing to do with mental health.
Back in the 50's and 60's it was not at all unusual for women who did not "mind" to be committed by their husbands. My mother was committed and given 24 shock treatments in order to make her "nice".
When the law was passed calling for voluntarily admitting ones self to a mental hospital, there were supposed to be accessible outpatient clinics. The clinics were never funded.
Back in the 50's and 60's it was not at all unusual for women who did not "mind" to be committed by their husbands. My mother was committed and given 24 shock treatments in order to make her "nice".
When the law was passed calling for voluntarily admitting ones self to a mental hospital, there were supposed to be accessible outpatient clinics. The clinics were never funded.
It was a half *ssed attempt at fixing the system.
Pass a law, set them free and then forget about them.
50+ years later we just don't talk about it.
Let me explain something really quickly about Dylann Roof. He really is not the aberration that people like to imagine. I promise you, if you head over to "4chan" /pol/ right now, that place is filled to the brim with people like Dylann Roof(let alone Stormfront).
And not just 4chan, if you read the Dylann Roof's manifesto, he sounds exactly like probably the vast majority of young white men that I have encountered on the internet.
Now, I think Dylann Roof was wrong in the fact that he was making very broad generalizations, and his desire to have Whites "rule over" blacks, is downright disgusting.
But, if you guys haven't noticed, people in this forum speak of "black-on-white" crime very often. And I'll be honest, it is difficult to look at racial statistics without being absolutely disgusted, and even "angry", "resentful", etc.
There has been a sort of "resurgence" of "scientific racism" in recent years. And a rise in "White Nationalism"(not just here, but also in Europe). In fact, Dylann Roof referred to something called the "Northwest Front". Which is a white nationalist organization that effectively wants all the white people to move to Oregon, Idaho, and Washington State, then declare independence from the rest of the United States.
The truth is, there are thousands, if not millions of potential Dylann Roofs in this country right now. And it has absolutely nothing to do with guns, or flags, or mental illness. To the extent that mental illness plays a role at all. It is because Dylann Roof was an introvert, probably had a mild form of autism(probably Asperger's). He probably suffered seriously from depression(he said he was going to kill himself). But his depression wasn't the cause of drugs, it was caused by his absolute frustration, and even disdain for our world.
There is something that society can do. But there is nothing that society will do. Because it was actually society which has created the fertile environment from which Dylann Roof, and others like him, grow.
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