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I can understand the argument that the confederate flag was not an official flag of the CSA, and so it has very loose connection to slavery (battle flag argument). However, the confederate flag has connection to a time period that is almost as bad as antebellum south: segregationist, anti-Civil Rights Southerners of the 1950s & 1960s. Consider the record that this flag represented in those days:
- Murders of civil rights leaders and workers
- abuse of civil rights protesters (think images of fire-hoses turned on people demanding equal treatment)
- Plessy vs. Ferguson/Jim Crow era separate facilities, schools, establishments for non-whites that were clearly unequal.
- Rise of the Klan as a terrorist force
- Blatant attempts to stand in the way of integration of schools, facilities, businesses.
- A general stubbornness and refusal to disassociate from white-supremacist racial views.
- Considering anyone from the North who suggested that integration was right as "agitators".
How can anyone look back at this history with any pride? How could you celebrate any association with the fact that your "southern pride" comes from the notion that you didn't listen to the federal government when they stated that you should treat people equally regardless of race (a tennet that seems is pretty much universally understood as righteous).
The confederate flag was used by George Wallace in segregationist message campaign ads, for crying out loud.
This is a serious question...I am a millenial and I just can't understand how anyone could have supported 1950s-era southern attitudes.
How can anyone have pride in and celebrate the American flag?
When this nation was founded, there was slavery in both the North and the South.
America committed genocide against Native Americans ("Indians.")
Selective outrage is not very persuasive.
If we are to shun the Confederate flag, we should equally shun the American flag.
On the other hand, we could just look at these things as part of history and stop applying today's standards to the past.
I didn't say I find it offensive or not. That's not the point I'm making as I'm making a higher level point/concern. And that's who is the judge/jury to decide? And what reason will trump the other? Does the person who finds it offensive trump one who thinks it should be flown on state property because they see it as historical significance? And your point of I "don't have the right to demand it be flown on public land that is owned by all of us" because "many of whom do find it offensive" makes me say equally that you also don't have the right to say it can't be flown on public property. And I'll ask you the same question.....why do YOU believe you can make this choice and define the symbol in only one context?
So you helped me wind back to my bigger picture question.....who has the right to say this/that symbol is offensive or not, and who will be the judge/jury to decide if it can be displayed on public property? There's lots of gray in this. What's next....people demanding the American flag can't be flown on public property because of what was done under it to the Native American Indians? See my point where this can go?
You make my point for me. If you don't find it offensive and I do, the best way to resolve it is to not allow any flags other than the state and federal flags to fly over property we both own. That way, no one is offended. See how easy that is?
And in the meantime, we both remain free to fly whatever flags we want on our own property, so no one has lost anything.
I don't propose that it should be banned by government decree...I just think it is so unpopular...even within states that identify with the flag...among citizens of those states, I mean...that it can't possibly be politically viable to fly it on the state capital anymore. It seems like a majority is against flying the confederate flag...even in southern states.
Yes, in 2000 it was voted on in SC...but times (and demographics!) have shifted considerably since 2000.
So yes, there's the dilemma......who decides? I can understand different views on any symbol. The irony is many who want "x" symbol banned are some of the people who yell the loudest for inclusion. Talk about irony to the 7th degree. Perhaps the answer is to have a series of flags flown on state properties and focus on the historical significance of them? Because really, for every symbol there is, let's be realistic....in my view there's a bit of ugliness/not a very pretty history that drips off all of them to some degree. And I know the answer isn't to ban them all, right? Again, maybe focusing on the positive elements of them, at least in an objective historical context, state the not so pretty things that went on, and leave it at that.
You make my point for me. If you don't find it offensive and I do, the best way to resolve it is to not allow any flags other than the state and federal flags to fly over property we both own. That way, no one is offended. See how easy that is?
And in the meantime, we both remain free to fly whatever flags we want on our own property, so no one has lost anything.
I have to say that's a possible solution but good luck getting the American flag from being flown from public/state/federal property.
This is a serious question...I am a millenial and I just can't understand how anyone could have supported 1950s-era southern attitudes.
They do it by having a very selective, revisionist perspective on history that whitewashes the evils of white supremacy. And also by being sympathetic, deep down, to white supremacist ideals.
We are responsible for calling out and successfully fighting the injustices of our time, just as our parents are of theirs and their parents before them. Abolitionist were in the moral right, and we can hold slavery supporters accountable. Integrationists and those who fought for civil rights were in the moral right, and we can hold segregationists accountable. Time will tell, but as a moderate pro-life person I would think that 100 years from now we can say those who supported life were in the right, and those who didn't will be held accountable. If we don't call out the failings of those who came before us we are doomed to repeat their mistakes.
So when are we going to address human privilege and human supremacy?
Some cows asked me to convey that question to you.
No one. We agree that we won't fight over whose symbol gets to be displayed on public land by deciding not to display anyone's symbols. Public land belongs to us all--no one group should get preferential treatment over another on jointly owned property. Only the official flags of the United States--the state and the federal flags--are flown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
I can understand different views on any symbol. The irony is many who want "x" symbol banned are some of the people who yell the loudest for inclusion. Talk about irony to the 7th degree. Perhaps the answer is to have a series of flags flown on state properties and focus on the historical significance of them? Because really, for every symbol there is, let's be realistic....in my view there's a bit of ugliness/not a very pretty history that drips off all of them to some degree. And I know the answer isn't to ban them all, right? Again, maybe focusing on the positive elements of them, at least in an objective historical context, state the not so pretty things that went on, and leave it at that.
Talk about opening a can of worms! Not only would you have not solved the original dilemma, but you would have compounded the problem tenfold. Now there would be all kinds of separate groups demanding that their flag be one of the chosen few. Now...who is going to decide THAT, when we can't even agree on the one that's there now?
Last edited by HeyJude514; 06-28-2015 at 12:10 AM..
Talk about opening a can of worms! Not only would you have not solved the original dilemma, but you would have compounded the problem tenfold. Now there would be all kinds of separate groups demanding that their flag be one of the chosen few. Now...who the hell is going to decide THAT, when we can't even agree on the one that's there now? What a ridiculous idea.
I didn't say it was ideal, just a possibility. And yes, I agree.....the whining would probably get even louder. How about virtual flags on a state app? Heck, add thousands if people want, and they can be added/taken down by/for the people. It's only memory. If people want to whine about this/that flag, go for it....and the comment section would be a blast to read!
But seriously, back to my original point as we are only talking about flags/symbols here because my original point goes way beyond flags....who decides what is/what symbol is or isn't offensive and what gets banned anywhere? Taking everything/anything away, allowing this but not that, isn't a long term solution for anything and who is the "what is offensive/what isn't" decider?
Last edited by stevek64; 06-28-2015 at 12:16 AM..
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