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Old 06-28-2015, 08:28 AM
 
8,391 posts, read 6,281,301 times
Reputation: 2314

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough View Post
You must have gone to public school in the north!
Irrelevant.

The lost cause, that paints the civil war as some tragedy, and about states rights obscures and hurts us.

The civil war was the American Revolution for black Americans and should be treated as such. It should be understood, that it was the black soldiers joining the north and fighting the death cult of the southern confederacy that saved this nation.

Instead we get these lies, which leads to the creation of Jim Crow, the klan, another 100 years of suffering, and honoring the violent traitorous racists which demeans those black soldiers who saved the union, and demeans the civil war which should be remembered as the fight which led to the liberation of black Americans.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:31 AM
 
58,684 posts, read 27,030,609 times
Reputation: 14174
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
I absolutely understand your point.

But the question becomes what is the flags meaning when it was first introduced? Does it stand for oppression and the fight to keep slavery, or does it stand for the fight for the right of a states existence?

Meanings change over time. I for one do not know the origin of meaning of the flag. But it was made in a time where slavery did exist, and the north and south had opposing opinions on what the country should be. But it wasn't all bout slavery, as there were other reasons the north and south fought.

I do not thing my argument is bogus. It's just a debate, one with two sides that may never meet. I for one was never taught that the confederate flag stood for slavery and oppression. Maybe the meaning changed over time and that's what people believe today.
"But the question becomes what is the flags meaning when it was first introduced?"

It was a battle flag for the Virginia army soldiers so the VA. soldiers could better define where their men were with all the smoke from black powder guns making it difficult to do so. Nothing more, nothing less.

History of the flags.

"Note: It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights.

USFlag.org: A website dedicated to the Flag of the United States of America - Confederate Stars and Bars
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,288,091 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by neko_mimi View Post
I don't remember them complaining about it a few weeks ago.

Of course we know that it's because their messiah and his favorite race baiter told them to. But I just wanted to hear their excuses as to why they suddenly decided to be outraged.
Normally they go off on gun control. But this time the media steered them towards the flag.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,028 posts, read 27,438,416 times
Reputation: 15945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
Irrelevant.

The lost cause, that paints the civil war as some tragedy, and about states rights obscures and hurts us.

The civil war was the American Revolution for black Americans and should be treated as such. It should be understood, that it was the black soldiers joining the north and fighting the death cult of the southern confederacy that saved this nation.

Instead we get these lies, which leads to the creation of Jim Crow, the klan, another 100 years of suffering, and honoring the violent traitorous racists which demeans those black soldiers who saved the union, and demeans the civil war which should be remembered as the fight which led to the liberation of black Americans.
Actually, The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose.

The racial hate groups have usurped this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no moral right to use this flag.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:32 AM
 
Location: NH
820 posts, read 1,013,884 times
Reputation: 1036
Herd behavior, group-think. it gives them something to project their passive-aggressiveness upon. It is what their 'party' revolves around. They are unable to stand on an individual basis. They need others to assure them their actions are correct in their delusional conscience instead of being responsible for things that truly matter in their lives. It is part of their deflection of responsibility which they excel at.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Barrington
63,919 posts, read 46,578,285 times
Reputation: 20674
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC_Sleuth View Post
It will be forever tied to George Wallace, standing in the doorway of the University of Alabama...as well as other symbols of defiance of just simple human decency.

And this isn't a two-week old issue. In 2000, when I was in college, we were debating this issue of what the flag meant because it was up for votes in the South. But because I didn't live in the South, I have seen the confederate flag actually flying (i.e. not on the internet) all of about 10 times in my life....I grew up in New York, and live in a diverse sub-urban neighborhood Midwest city where it is just not prevalent. If I was exposed to it more, I would have been more vociferous in my opposition to it...because to me it was used to symbolize that which is just indefensible.
The flag was mounted in 1962. There had been opposistion to it, ever since. A compromise was struck in 2000 whereby it was relocated. It has been a common symbol used by white supremacy.

Romney was among the first calling for the flag to come down.

Some choose to make it partisan.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:34 AM
 
8,391 posts, read 6,281,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
Exactly. Get anyone one of those rebel flag flying yokels away from the cameras - or get them a bit drunk - and the "n-word" will be dripping from their mouth in no time. This is exactly about retaining racism in the nation - and other forms of hatred, such hatred against gays, people of other faiths, etc. - and nothing else. They are just ticked that the country as a whole is waking up and asking why we have nuts still flying the flag of a slave-owning failed state over 150 years after it was thankfully defeated in war.
Of course, the idea that those flying the flag are doing so for southern heritage is a huge racist lie. How can there be a southern heritage in 2015, that celebrates and honors racist, muderous traitors who were dedicated to keeping black southerners in bondage and death.

The lie about southern heritage only works if you exclude black southerners from southern heritage, none of whom have any stake in the confederacy.


And everyone knows this, so when someone celebrates that flag, they are canceling out black southerners, they do this because they are racist, and everyone knows this.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:36 AM
 
9,694 posts, read 7,356,786 times
Reputation: 9931
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
Didn't I say

You can argue that Flying the confederate flag perpetrates a long and incredibly entrenched tradition of organized racism, bigotry, and terrorism. You can even argue that this flag must come down as quickly as possible, and that we as a nation will be better for it.

well, there are still people who believe ALL southerners fly that flag are racists. in case you didn't notice.
I can understand the capitol bldg and other government bldg, which I have not seen happen in over ten years but the way they came in the last couple weeks and demanding monument and cemetery. Demanding to erase history because somebody feeling got hurt, that had no exposer to this.

I feel it, and the way that every white dude is a racist, i feel it has push racial relation back thirty years.

I know companies with over 150 employee, that will not hire opposite race, just because of liability of incidents like this. They just dont want to deal with it.

so the harm of the last eight years and the way they push everything down our throat even when the majority votes no, has made us no better than the mid 70's
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:38 AM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,895,376 times
Reputation: 3461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOWN_REPRESENTA View Post
lets just pretend that the confederate flag, under its many names and variations, didn't represent a belief, as outlined by the articles of secession of multiple states, that one of the main reasons for secession was slavery. let us pretend that the cornerstone speech, delivered by the vice president of the confederacy, didn't state, "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea (all men are created equal); its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition."

let us pretend that mississippi didn't adopt the stars and bars as part of its state flag until 1894, 4 years after disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of blacks with restrictive voting laws and near the beginning of the jim crow era. let us pretend that south carolina, the first state to secede, didn't begin flying the confederate flag from their state house until after the civil right act of 1960 was signed into law and georgia didn't add the stars and bars to its state flag until after the supreme court ruling on brown vs the board of education. lets just pretend that this flag hasn't been used as a means of intimidating black people in this country all the way back to the late 19th century.

even without all of that aforementioned history, that flag is STILL a symbol of treason and no government entity should be endorsing a symbol from an era in which people were seeking to destroy this union under the laughable guise of, "states rights."
Very well said, thanks & respect. Everything you've said here is historically valid, & is consistent with the documentary evidence.

I don't think there are many American people who would welcome a 2nd Civil War. Perhaps Mr. Roof is one? It's not surprising he chose the Confederate flag to represent his beliefs. Aside from everything else it may symbolize, the outcome was a Civil War. There are always alternative ways to solve disagreements, problems, & violence is never the best choice. It's not surprising he chose the Confederate flag to represent his beliefs.

The people of South Carolina are heartbroken about the senseless violence that happened in their community. Unfortunately, I don't think they should be surprised. Unfortunately, I think it can happen anywhere & especially in these still not so United States of America.

The people of South Carolina are still healing, we all are. Let's give each other a chance.
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Old 06-28-2015, 08:39 AM
 
Location: USA
7,474 posts, read 7,016,220 times
Reputation: 12503
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post

It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have usurped this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no moral right to use this flag.
And the swastika was usurped from another culture, too. Shall we fly it today?

Nobody cares what something used to represent outside of history books. Nobody flying a rebel flag today is celebrating the bravery of southern warriors, just like nobody flying a swastika is celebrating the courage of German warriors. The rebel flag, outside of historical exhibits, is flown for one reason only. We all know what that reason is, and to pretend otherwise is laughable.
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