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I doubt those 12 incidents cancel out the many times people have died by guns that 'good guys' own. This would include accidental shooting deaths, suicides, heat of the moment shooting deaths, deaths of family members living in a household with a gun, etc. If 12 incidents is supposed to prove that everyone should have a gun--it doesn't make the case.
Gotta love America's obsession with guns, thinking all our problems could be cured with a gun in our hands. That is the same the same thing mass murderers tend to think when they take a gun to use it to harm others. We need to change the social mentality of this country that things guns will solve all our problems.
look at it this way, if a bad guy with a gun decides to shoot up a place, do you really think that a good guy without a gun is going to stop the bad guy? chances are no he wont. but ole sam colt makes everyone equal, and good guy with a gun can stop bag guy with a gun and SAVE lives. but chances are you will not understand this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacanegro
Not to be argumentative, but with proper gun control almost none of those shooters would have been able to obtain a firearm while the citizen heros would be unaffected.
and just how do you presume to accomplish this? you want to make laws that make it tougher for bad guys to get their hands on guns. but you are not thinking past the first step, and that is the bad guys dont get their guns, for the most part, through legal means. instead they either steal the guns, or buy them on the black market where there are NO laws. so by making new laws, all you do is make it tougher for law abiding citizens to get firearms, without affecting the ability of bad guys to get guns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient
Good guys with guns stopping a mass shooting is always a very bad and failure-prone strategy. It may work twelve times, but what about all the times it has failed?
A far better one is stopping deranged people from having easy access to firearms.
Most other modern, civilized nations do this quite successfully and have much lower rates of homicide, gun violence, and massacres than we do here in the USA.
It is idiotic to envision a society where everyone needs to go through their daily lives with a loaded firearm in their hands to safely get through the day. If that's your definition of order and safety in society, then you're no longer even living in a civilization at that point.
your vision is rather myopic dont you think? unless you can find the bad guy who is going to do a mass shooting, and stop them before they take the first shot, people like you will consider having a good guy with a gun to have failed in stopping the bad guy. the best one can ever hope for is to limit the damage.
and again how do you stop the bad guys from getting guns? remember that they dont use legal means to obtain their guns, they get them illegally. so how do you stop the black market, or the theft of guns?
here is a bit of interesting reading for you. read this quote from the report first though before you read the report, and keep it in mind as you read the report;
Quote:
Other Countries bias down their homicide numbers
You also need to be very careful before relying too heavily on homicide rates in other countries. If the Unites States is relatively more accurate in measuring its homicide rate and other countries try to hide their rates, it will look make it look like the US has a relatively higher rate than it actually does.
UK — Homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries. Their homicide numbers “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise” (Report to Parliament). The problem isn’t just that it reduces the recorded homicide rate in England and Wales, but what would a similar reduction mean for the US.
If taken literally, and there is significant evidence that in practice the actual adjustment is no where near this large, a simple comparison can be made. In 2012, the US murder rate was 4.7 per 100,000, a total of14,827. Arrests amounted to only 7,133. Using only people who were arrested (not just convicted) would lower the US murder rate to 2.26 per 100,000. More information on the adjustment for England and Wales is available here and it suggests that while many homicides are excluded it isn’t as large as it would appear (in 1997, the downward adjustment would be about 12 percent).
As can be proven so many anti gun threads and attempts to restrict gun ownership??
Sorry, I didn't realize the OP was an anti gunner....we live in a culture obsessed with guns, that is a very easy to understand statement. The creation of this thread is a perfect example of that.
Good guys with guns stopping a mass shooting is always a very bad and failure-prone strategy. It may work twelve times, but what about all the times it has failed?
A far better one is stopping deranged people from having easy access to firearms.
Most other modern, civilized nations do this quite successfully and have much lower rates of homicide, gun violence, and massacres than we do here in the USA.
It is idiotic to envision a society where everyone needs to go through their daily lives with a loaded firearm in their hands to safely get through the day. If that's your definition of order and safety in society, then you're no longer even living in a civilization at that point.
"Most other modern, civilized nations do this quite successfully and have much lower rates of homicide, gun violence, and massacres than we do here in the USA."
·The quintessential reason why Grandpa carries a gun.
·Please take time to read this and pay particular attention
to "A Little Gun History" about half way down –staggering numbers!
Why Carry a Gun?
My old Grandpa said to me, 'Son, there comes a time inevery man's life when he stops bustin' knuckles and startsbustin' caps and usually it's when he becomes too old to take an ass whoopin'.'
I don't carry a gun to kill people; I carry a gun to keepfrombeing killed.
I don't carry a gun to scare people; I carry a gun because sometimes this World can be a scary place.
I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid; I carry a gunbecausethere are real threats in the World.
I don't carry a gun because I'm evil; I carry a gun becauseI have lived long enough to see the evil in the World.
I don't carry a gun because I hate the government; I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.
I don't carry a gun because I'm angry; I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.
I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone; Icarry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.
I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy; I carry a gun because, when I die and go to Heaven, I want to be acowboy.
I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man; I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselvesand the ones they love.
I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate; I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.
I don't carry a gun because I love it; I carry a gun becauseI love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.
Police protection is an oxymoron: Free citizens mustprotect themselvesbecause police do not protect youfrom crime; they just investigate thecrime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'! A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
·PLEASE DON’T THINK FOR A MOMENT, THATTHIS COULDN’T HAPPEN IN OUR COUNTRY ALSO !!!!!!
·In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control:
·From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents,unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control:
·From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938:
From 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who wereunable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------
China established gun control in 1935: From 1948 to
·1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964:
· From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defendthemselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970:
·From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956:
·From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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56 million defenseless people were rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control.
-----------------------
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
·Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
With guns, we are 'citizens'; without them, we are 'subjects'.
During WW II, the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
·
·Gun owners in the USA are the largest armed forces inthe World!
If you value your freedom, please spread this anti- guncontrol message to all of your friends.
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possiblevictory in defense.
·The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. SWITZERLAND ISSUES A GUN TO EVERY
·HOUSEHOLD! SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT ISSUES AND TRAINS EVERY ADULT IN THE USE OF A RIFLE.
·SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
·IT'S A NO BRAINER! DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENTWASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.
IF people obeyed ALL laws, we wouldn't need a judicial system of cops, lawyers, judges, etc. would we.
You live in utopia.
REAL life doesn't work that way.
No, I live in the US, where we have an obsession with guns that clearly some people either fail to see or just want to pretend it doesn't exist to make themselves feel better.
look at it this way, if a bad guy with a gun decides to shoot up a place, do you really think that a good guy without a gun is going to stop the bad guy? chances are no he wont. but ole sam colt makes everyone equal, and good guy with a gun can stop bag guy with a gun and SAVE lives. but chances are you will not understand this.
Question for you, how did the bad guy get a gun? Solve that problem and you start preventing mass shootings rather relying on random armed people to hopefully act and use their guns for good.
Heck, one could argue that most mass shootings end by the use of guns, but that doesn't prevent any of the deaths those guns created.
I get people like guns, I too enjoy firing guns, but some of us are more realistic and don't see carrying a gun as making us to be a hero in the making because that would be naïve to think.
By your "reasoning" I guess we are "obsessed with CARS, and TV'S AND REFRIGERATORS. AND OVENS, FLUSHING TOILETS, ETC.
Sorry to burst your bubble but, just because we own things does NOT mean we are "obsessed" with them.
Nice try with a non sequitur to try to pretend like there isn't a gun obsession going on in the US. This clearly is something you struggle with accepting.
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