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How do you compare Dukes of Hazzard with Dr Huxtable serial rapist ...
Don't know. Haven't seen "Dukes" since the mid 1980's, and haven't watched "Cosby" in probably about 20 years. Want to talk about "Murphy Brown" or "Roseanne" next while we're on such current pop culture topics?
Because of folks stating these are driven by the right, here is a city council and news outlet that are more left slanting that decided to take in this effort for their constituents.
Like most things conservatives support, they can't support and defend the thing, so they go dishonest, oh we are destroying our heritage/history. Nah why don't we know any of the names of black soldiers in the civil war and whose actions saved the Union?
Why don't we comemorate, the site of lynchings, and slave auctions, and white race riots that terrorized black people and destroyed towns? That's our heritage and history as well.
Why don't we have memorials dedicated to the time that North Carolina whites did a coup to run black people out of government through violence and the federal government did nothing?
Why don't we celebrate the civil war as the American Revolution of black Americans and the end of their enslavement?
Why don't we celebrate Juneteenth as a national a holiday?
You cats don't want to know our past.
They are liars.
Those memorials, statues, roads named after murderers, exist for two reasons one to white wash the history of the civil war as not being about slavery, and to honor the ideas of the confederacy which are black inferiority and white supremacy. Plain and simple.
I don't care if they keep those things or not.
What I'd like to see are memorials to black soldiers in the civil war, memorials to slave auctions, lynchings, memorials to white riots destroying black towns. Let's really remember our history.
Like most things conservatives support, they can't support and defend the thing, so they go dishonest, oh we are destroying our heritage/history. Nah why don't we know any of the names of black soldiers in the civil war and whose actions saved the Union?
Why don't we comemorate, the site of lynchings, and slave auctions, and white race riots that terrorized black people and destroyed towns? That's our heritage and history as well.
Why don't we have memorials dedicated to the time that North Carolina whites did a coup to run black people out of government through violence and the federal government did nothing?
Why don't we celebrate the civil war as the American Revolution of black Americans and the end of their enslavement?
Why don't we celebrate Juneteenth as a national a holiday?
You cats don't want to know our past.
They are liars.
Those memorials, statues, roads named after murderers, exist for two reasons one to white wash the history of the civil war as not being about slavery, and to honor the ideas of the confederacy which are black inferiority and white supremacy. Plain and simple.
I don't care if they keep those things or not.
What I'd like to see are memorials to black soldiers in the civil war, memorials to slave auctions, lynchings, memorials to white riots destroying black towns. Let's really remember our history.
I agree with this as well but did want to point out that there is a movement across the country to get more sites of riots and civil unrest in particular recognition via monuments.
Also, for those who don't know (not sure if poster above knows or not) there is a US Colored Troops memorial in DC which lists all of the black troops in the Civil War. My husband's 3rd great grandfather was in the colored troops and was in Appomatox when Lee surrendered. His name is on the monument and we are planning on visiting for pictures and to take a rubbing.
There are also many monuments to prominent black Americans in various cities and in DC. One that I know and of a person I admire in particular is Mary McLeod Bethune, and when it was opened/constructed people were upset that she got a monument in DC.
I also will admit that I too believe that more recognition is not given to racial minorities in our country mostly due to systematic racism. If white Americans don't push for it or have an issue for or against recognition, it is rare that something will be done to honor non-white Americans. I'm sure there are many more confederate parks and monuments and statues in the south in particular versus monuments to people who were lynched or civil rights activists home's who were bombed (there were WAY more than people know). And I agree that we should honor all of our country's history. But I feel that instead of taking away the confederate memorials, they can be used to show the progression of racism and Jim Crow in the south leading to Civil Rights. Dr. King was killed in Memphis. The Loraine Motel is a living monument to him and the Civil Rights movement and I feel that they could use some tours and literature to connect all of these historical pasts with the present without destroying the history of these places or removing the names of the players. Nathan Bedford Forest was one of the founders of the KKK. Even though they have a vile past and present, it is something IMO that people should know about so that hopefully people in this generation will see that ideas of racial superiority are not grounded in logic. Forest himself changed his views later on in life, like many people do and his story is one that can be used as a teaching tool and incorporated into the interesting, difficult history of race relations in TN and Memphis.
I agree with this as well but did want to point out that there is a movement across the country to get more sites of riots and civil unrest in particular recognition via monuments.
Also, for those who don't know (not sure if poster above knows or not) there is a US Colored Troops memorial in DC which lists all of the black troops in the Civil War. My husband's 3rd great grandfather was in the colored troops and was in Appomatox when Lee surrendered. His name is on the monument and we are planning on visiting for pictures and to take a rubbing.
There are also many monuments to prominent black Americans in various cities and in DC. One that I know and of a person I admire in particular is Mary McLeod Bethune, and when it was opened/constructed people were upset that she got a monument in DC.
I also will admit that I too believe that more recognition is not given to racial minorities in our country mostly due to systematic racism. If white Americans don't push for it or have an issue for or against recognition, it is rare that something will be done to honor non-white Americans. I'm sure there are many more confederate parks and monuments and statues in the south in particular versus monuments to people who were lynched or civil rights activists home's who were bombed (there were WAY more than people know). And I agree that we should honor all of our country's history. But I feel that instead of taking away the confederate memorials, they can be used to show the progression of racism and Jim Crow in the south leading to Civil Rights. Dr. King was killed in Memphis. The Loraine Motel is a living monument to him and the Civil Rights movement and I feel that they could use some tours and literature to connect all of these historical pasts with the present without destroying the history of these places or removing the names of the players. Nathan Bedford Forest was one of the founders of the KKK. Even though they have a vile past and present, it is something IMO that people should know about so that hopefully people in this generation will see that ideas of racial superiority are not grounded in logic. Forest himself changed his views later on in life, like many people do and his story is one that can be used as a teaching tool and incorporated into the interesting, difficult history of race relations in TN and Memphis.
I did know about the memorial in DC, but my point is these soldiers, who saved the union. None of their names are well known. We don't say great things about these soldiers.
In the way you'd hear about certain confederate generals being "fine" men.
I did know about the memorial in DC, but my point is these soldiers, who saved the union. None of their names are well known. We don't say great things about these soldiers.
In the way you'd hear about certain confederate generals being "fine" men.
I agree.
Many also like to downplay the role of colored troops in the Civil War as if they did not contribute to the victory as if they were nothing but servants and didn't fight. The Union didn't start to win as many battles until the colored troops were brought in and helped with the combat effort.
Many more people ignore the history of black navy servicemen. The navy in the Civil War was not segregated and consisted of a large amount of black sailors due to many blacks having much more sailing experience versus whites. I have an ancestor who was a navy servicemen during the Civil War here in the Great Lakes area.
ETA: We won't even talk about the black nurses and laborers during the war who followed regiments and nursed all the servicemen in large numbers.
Many also like to downplay the role of colored troops in the Civil War as if they did not contribute to the victory as if they were nothing but servants and didn't fight. The Union didn't start to win as many battles until the colored troops were brought in and helped with the combat effort.
Many more people ignore the history of black navy servicemen. The navy in the Civil War was not segregated and consisted of a large amount of black sailors due to many blacks having much more sailing experience versus whites. I have an ancestor who was a navy servicemen during the Civil War here in the Great Lakes area.
ETA: We won't even talk about the black nurses and laborers during the war who followed regiments and nursed all the servicemen in large numbers.
Lincoln said repeatedly that the North can't win, couldn't have won without black soldiers.
Seriously, black soldiers literally saved the Union, that's not hyperbole, but they aren't celebrated in that manner.
I am a black American but I am very interested in history and I don't think we should willy-nilly change the names of parks and such.
Confederate were and then became Americans again and many self proclaimed "Confederates" also took care of many Union graves and ensured that they had honorable cemeteries and places of rest in the south. The poster above is correct in that many American families were torn apart by this conflict and the effects were deeply felt and devastating for Americans in general immediately prior to and after the war.
I personally don't see why they would want to change the names of the parks right now. I will be honest and state that in many ways I think that many liberally minded PC white Americans along with guilt ridden conservatives after this SC shooting are trying to "prove" how they aren't racist by trying to remove the confederacy and side with black political figures on this issue. I can understand them taking down the flag in SC from the capital building, as that is something that blacks in particular in SC and including Clementa Pinckney who was killed, lobbied to occur. I can understand them doing it in his memory. But in places not associated with SC, it makes no sense IMO. Getting rid of the confederate history will do nothing to curtail the systematic racism still alive in our country. The confederates are long dead, many, including Nathan Bedford Forest, whose monument they want to remove/move actually changed course in regards to their racist leanings and were less racist and more concillatory after Reconstruction.
And FWIW, there is still a "Confederate Memorial Day" in the south, my husband got that day off of work every year when we lived in GA. I have always thought that this was unnecessary due to what the poster above mentioned, the Confederates were Americans before and after the war, so we should place wreaths and remember them on regular "Memorial Day" in May. But removing it won't heal a racial wound and is no proof of how less racist someone or society is IMO just like removing statues or re-naming parks isn't anything worthy of praise.
ETA: I read another article that they want to remove Nathan Bedford Forest's grave from the park where he currently rests. I think that that is pretty appalling and unncessary as well. Also the cost of the removal and reburial will be felt by Memphis and the state of TN. If they want to waste money moving him, then so be it, but IMO it is silly and unnecessary. TN does have a confederate past. It would be good IMO to use these parks and monuments as teaching tools instead of seeing them as somehow shameful.
I think you have to look at thing on a case by case basis. I used to live in Northern Virginia, about 7 miles from downtown Washington. There are so many monuments and memorials and memorial fountains and...well, it goes on and on. And I think that sometimes it comes down to does a monument or memorial stand the test of time; put in perspective, does the monument reflect a truly important part of history; or is the monument itself now a significant part of history.
For example, there's quite a large monument down along the Potomac River to the man who invented the screw propeller. Now, in its time I guess that was pretty important, but in the whole gamut of American history, maybe it doesn't compare with some other inventions or discoveries that should be honored.
On the other hand, in Arlington National Cemetery, much to the surprise of many, there's a large and rather dramatic Confederate Memorial (which is sort of ironic since the cemetery is on land taken away from Robert E. Lee). Whether you like Confederate memorials or not, the memorial's history itself is important and constructive as both sides sought reconciliation after the war (which is something sorely lacking on this forum).
I have often visited Confederate (and Union) cemeteries because I enjoy learning about history. In a sense, they are as important as many museums. Although I am appalled by many aspects of Southern history, I find museums (like the Museum Of The Confederacy in Charleston) fascinating and important because they teach those who want to learn aspects of that history -- both good and bad -- that history books may not teach us.
To me, Bedford is so odious, the statue needs to go, although it is a decision that needs to be made at the local level. And that in itself is an important lesson. Though some may not like, who is in power in a particular constituency may change, and with that so may change perceptions of what to be proud of. And in a sense, that is another part of the furor -- the group in power for so many years is now feeling threatened; they feel they are endanger of losing power. And it doesn't so feel so nice now that they are the ones being controlled by events.
As far as moving the graves, that has been done so often in American history and for all sorts of reasons, that if it is done in a way in which the remains are treated with respect, then I have no problem with it. The question to me is, is the move being done for the better good.
A lot of the debate on this particular issue, unfortunately, is just both sides digging in their heels and throwing tantrums to have their way.
The Republicans of those days, yes. However, what does that have to do with anything I've said? I'm not talking about political parties. I'm talking about whether or not we should be honoring Confederate soldiers. Why being political parties into this?
"Harris, 34, who along with his wife, Alena Allen, teaches at the University of Memphis School of Law, said every day he has had to pass Confederate Park, which is right next to the building where they work.
A native Memphian, he said he did not think much about the issue of parks honoring the Confederacy when he was a kid. But now he worries about his own children.
"My son comes to my office all the time. At some time, he'll come to realize there was a War Between the States and one side was the Confederacy and it didn't like a lot of things about him," said Harris."
Didn't bother him but subsequent generations will be affected?
Oh yeah, time always opens wounds, never heals.
Let's rename things and wipe the history books clean from last week going back.
Healing will be instant with memories and history erased.
It is people's hearts and minds that will do that , nothing else.
and everytime I see a toyota or mitsubishi drive down the road...........
I think you have to look at thing on a case by case basis. I used to live in Northern Virginia, about 7 miles from downtown Washington. There are so many monuments and memorials and memorial fountains and...well, it goes on and on. And I think that sometimes it comes down to does a monument or memorial stand the test of time; put in perspective, does the monument reflect a truly important part of history; or is the monument itself now a significant part of history.
For example, there's quite a large monument down along the Potomac River to the man who invented the screw propeller. Now, in its time I guess that was pretty important, but in the whole gamut of American history, maybe it doesn't compare with some other inventions or discoveries that should be honored.
On the other hand, in Arlington National Cemetery, much to the surprise of many, there's a large and rather dramatic Confederate Memorial (which is sort of ironic since the cemetery is on land taken away from Robert E. Lee). Whether you like Confederate memorials or not, the memorial's history itself is important and constructive as both sides sought reconciliation after the war (which is something sorely lacking on this forum).
I have often visited Confederate (and Union) cemeteries because I enjoy learning about history. In a sense, they are as important as many museums. Although I am appalled by many aspects of Southern history, I find museums (like the Museum Of The Confederacy in Charleston) fascinating and important because they teach those who want to learn aspects of that history -- both good and bad -- that history books may not teach us.
To me, Bedford is so odious, the statue needs to go, although it is a decision that needs to be made at the local level. And that in itself is an important lesson. Though some may not like, who is in power in a particular constituency may change, and with that so may change perceptions of what to be proud of. And in a sense, that is another part of the furor -- the group in power for so many years is now feeling threatened; they feel they are endanger of losing power. And it doesn't so feel so nice now that they are the ones being controlled by events.
As far as moving the graves, that has been done so often in American history and for all sorts of reasons, that if it is done in a way in which the remains are treated with respect, then I have no problem with it. The question to me is, is the move being done for the better good.
A lot of the debate on this particular issue, unfortunately, is just both sides digging in their heels and throwing tantrums to have their way.
ITA with the bold above.
A lot of places, especially near DC have a lot of monuments to various types of Americans. But I understand Iamme73's response as well, that in the south many of these people are considered "great" just because they were confederates even though politically and personally, many were literally domestic terrorists and too often, that part of the history is not spoken about. I think the monuments have their place as long as the entire history is told or relayed in some way, which is why I do feel that in Memphis in particular, the place of Dr. King's assassination, that they should have some vestiges of their confederate past as the confederate's belief (and practically all white Americans during that time) of the superiority of the white man over the black, is the major factor that contributed to Dr. King being murdered. Everything is connected IMO.
I admit that when I lived for many years (about 17) in Atlanta that I was always intrigued by the many street names and monuments to confederates and "Confederate Memorial Day." Atlanta prides itself on being a "city to busy to hate" but in many ways with all of the confederate memorials, I felt it was just a city, in the past, but not today, dominated by intimidation of the former confederates over blacks and blacks there "knew their place" and stayed in it and weren't as vocal against many of these monuments and street namings and such until the modern Civil Rights era due to fear of being terrorized and killed or decimated economically. The only monuments that I'm aware of there that deal with black people are all from the CRM and the King Center in particular. In recent years, streets have been renamed after black civil rights icons in Atlanta and many times it angered citizens who felt the original street names held historical significance.
I hear people are even discussing Stone Mountain, which has three confederates carved into the side of the mountain and which had a large KKK population in the past (I bet they are turning over in their graves now!). I never really felt comfortable going there and due to that and only went once in the 17 years I lived there. Not because of any racial animosity on my part, but just because I felt it silly to have such a huge display of a dead country and I didn't want to view it. Plus the park cost too much to go to IMO lol.
ETA: I don't feel that they should remove the carving in Stone Mountain even though it was used, once again, as an intimidation factor and to push white supremacy in GA. I do think that they should highlight that portion of the history of the monument.
Sculptor Augustus Lukeman took over, blasted away the original work, and carved until money ran out in 1928. For 36 years, nothing happened. Then in 1954, the Supreme Court's landmark decision in Brown v. Board of Education ruling segregated schools unconstitutional galvanized the white South. The Confederate memorial became a potent symbol of defiance and white supremacy.
The state of Georgia bought the mountain in 1958. Governor Marvin Griffin supported finishing the memorial, now reduced to Lee, Jefferson Davis, and Stonewall Jackson. Completed in 1970, it remains one of the most prominent memorials to the lost cause in Georgia
Bold and italics added by me. It seems many southerners aren't aware that many of their current monuments have the same history as Stone Mountain, that they were not completely erected or completed until after Brown v. Board and were basically a racist reaction to desegregation. Many people try to "educate" me about their "southern heritage" or what the "flag really means" and are surprised to know that for practically all southern states including SC, that the confederate flag in particular was not flown or a part of their state's flag until after this landmark decision. Nor were many other confederate monuments and memorials. They were erected to exhibit white supremacy and that IMO is something that should be shared in order to deflate the "honorable" prestige of these men. These monuments were, for the south, a new civil war and show of their rebellion against the rest of the country.
Last edited by residinghere2007; 07-13-2015 at 01:22 PM..
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