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Well this certainly is an interesting perspective. Seems rather musing - could be a lot more reason for the downward spiral. Feminists will of course yell passive aggressive misogyny - but who cares, right? I love the punchline. Yeah bro, maybe I'll fiddle too.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
This is actually the truth, but let me explain in more detail.
There are fundamentally two types of societies. You have matriarchal societies and patriarchal societies. In a matriarchal society, women rule(or at least have more power), and men largely only exist on the periphery. The females will usually have several sexual relationships over the course of their lives, jumping from one man to the next as it suits her needs.
This reproductive strategy is perfectly acceptable to a woman. Since all of her children are guaranteed to be her own, and her entire goal is to mate with the strongest genetic male, and then find a male that will help take care of her offspring. This does not have to be the same male. And she will throw out any male who no longer benefits her.
Furthermore, the strongest genetic male is not necessarily the most intelligent, the most productive, or the most cooperative. Rather, the strongest genetic male relates almost exclusively to masculinity. Intelligence tends to be of very little importance.
Matriarchal societies have only ever existed outside of civilization. They are always sedentary gatherer societies. Almost exclusively in warmer climates where food is abundant year-round. And thus it enables women to sustain themselves without the help of men(and since it "selects" for higher masculinity, the females tend to be more masculine as well).
In a patriarchal society, men rule(or have more power). And since males do not bear children, a male has to find a female to bear his children. But since he cannot know for sure if the child is his own, and because he has no interest whatsoever in raising another man's child. Men invent marriage. Which is the first form of communally-accepted property rights. He owns his wife(although they technically own each other). And if the wife cheats on him, it is adultery, and the punishment for adultery was often "death", for one or both parties involved.
From marriage, you create property rights and hereditary laws, and from those you can create civilization. Patriarchy is civilization. It promotes respect, cooperation, hard-work, loyalty, and intelligence.
There is no civilization that wasn't patriarchal, because you cannot have a civilization without patriarchy. Where matriarchy rises, civilization collapses. It always has, it always will.
This is my favorite quote by John Adams....
"From all that I had read of history and government, of human life and manners, I had drawn this conclusion, that the manners of women were the most infallible barometer to ascertain the degree of morality and virtue in a nation. All that I have since read, and all the observations I have made in different nations, have confirmed me in this opinion. The manners of women are the surest criterion by which to determine whether a republican government is practicable in a nation or not. The Jews, the - Greeks, the Romans, the Dutch, all lost their public spirit, their republican principles and habits, and their republican forms of government, when they lost the modesty and domestic virtues of their women.
The foundations of national morality must be laid in private families. In vain are schools, academies, and universities, instituted, if loose principles and licentious habits are impressed upon children in their earliest years. The mothers are the earliest and most important instructors of youth. The vices and examples of the parents cannot be concealed from the children. How is it possible that children can have any just sense of the sacred obligations of morality or religion, if, from their earliest infancy, they learn that their mothers live in habitual infidelity to their fathers, and their fathers in as constant infidelity to their mothers? Besides, the catholic doctrine is, that the contract of marriage is not only a civil and moral engagement, but a sacrament; one of the most solemn vows and oaths of religious devotion. Can they then believe religion, and morality too, anything more than a veil, a cloak, a hypocritical pretext, for political purposes of decency and convenience?"
Women are destroying everything(or more specifically, feminists, cultural Marxists, and liberals). But I don't really care anymore. I'm just going to play my fiddle while Rome burns. I neither think it can be saved, nor is there anything worth saving.
Boo yah kid! In a free society, you are free to do anything you want - and that includes nothing. The rat race is insanity. If you think voting with your butt is the best answer, well you may be right.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
No one has provided the obvious answer to "why are young men dropping out of society?" Simple: For the first time, they can.
Parents are no longer demanding that young men get married NOW and become a "bread winner" and have a bunch of brats themselves. There is no major war requiring men to be drafted, and the economy is good enough for people to survive alone.
I have another question: why are young women not in the kitchen? Answer: society has gotten over that expectation.
It is gender roles going away. Just as women no longer have to be mother's raising kids and cooking but can choose to have a career, young men no longer have to be "breadwinners" chained to a desk or assembly line but can choose their own paths.
I personally work in a restaurant, but I am a manager, and have no interest in having a family, a wife, or a house. I will continue to work at a restaurant, smoke weed, and play video games broken only by occasionally dating for as long as I can. Why? Because I choose to.
And who cares? We are not a burden on society, we are not on welfare, not hurting anyone or anything. Saying "young men belong with wives and real jobs!" is like saying "young women belong in the kitchen."
The older generation are just jealous that we don't have to get married to women who will become fat nags and we don't have to work nine-to-fives. I say to "boomers", in the words of my generation:
Without women to love and care for, men are nothing but wild animals. Women civilize men, and in doing so, men have created civilization.
If you destroy the necessary ingredients for civilization, you destroy civilization. Our civilization is currently dying. And I say, "GOOD".
Not sure I agree with you about men being wild animals. Young men are more like this than old ones. Testoterone drives a mind mad. An old ones suffer from Power madness.
But as PPs have said - there are a lot of young guys just kicking back, smoking weed, gaming or slacking - not obsessing about acquiring that BEEMER so he can whet his noodle in a prettier package.
Maybe all that rat racing isn't worth it - maybe Pandora's pretty box isn't worth the effort or the price one has to pay ad infinitum.
maybe there is some genius in just taking it slow bro.
You leave out a few facts. Why did parents(IE society) want them to get married and have kids in the first place? And couldn't men always support themselves with basic work? Couldn't women even support themselves with basic work(if they had no children)? Why were men so eager to get married, have children, and work so many hours to provide for them?
The actual change has been cultural, or really "civilizational". When men and women are married, they both do better than when they are alone. Marriage translates into safety, security, morality, empathy, cooperation, productivity, and cultural survival.
And what the hell is "cultural survival"? Cultures change all the time. The America of the 2010s is not the same as the America of the 1790s, and could never be that way again.
This is actually the truth, but let me explain in more detail.
There are fundamentally two types of societies. You have matriarchal societies and patriarchal societies. In a matriarchal society, women rule(or at least have more power), and men largely only exist on the periphery. The females will usually have several sexual relationships over the course of their lives, jumping from one man to the next as it suits her needs.
This reproductive strategy is perfectly acceptable to a woman. Since all of her children are guaranteed to be her own, and her entire goal is to mate with the strongest genetic male, and then find a male that will help take care of her offspring. This does not have to be the same male. And she will throw out any male who no longer benefits her.
Furthermore, the strongest genetic male is not necessarily the most intelligent, the most productive, or the most cooperative. Rather, the strongest genetic male relates almost exclusively to masculinity. Intelligence tends to be of very little importance.
Matriarchal societies have only ever existed outside of civilization. They are always sedentary gatherer societies. Almost exclusively in warmer climates where food is abundant year-round. And thus it enables women to sustain themselves without the help of men(and since it "selects" for higher masculinity, the females tend to be more masculine as well).
In a patriarchal society, men rule(or have more power). And since males do not bear children, a male has to find a female to bear his children. But since he cannot know for sure if the child is his own, and because he has no interest whatsoever in raising another man's child. Men invent marriage. Which is the first form of communally-accepted property rights. He owns his wife(although they technically own each other). And if the wife cheats on him, it is adultery, and the punishment for adultery was often "death", for one or both parties involved.
From marriage, you create property rights and hereditary laws, and from those you can create civilization. Patriarchy is civilization. It promotes respect, cooperation, hard-work, loyalty, and intelligence.
There is no civilization that wasn't patriarchal, because you cannot have a civilization without patriarchy. Where matriarchy rises, civilization collapses. It always has, it always will.
This is my favorite quote by John Adams....
"From all that I had read of history and government, of human life and manners, I had drawn this conclusion, that the manners of women were the most infallible barometer to ascertain the degree of morality and virtue in a nation. All that I have since read, and all the observations I have made in different nations, have confirmed me in this opinion. The manners of women are the surest criterion by which to determine whether a republican government is practicable in a nation or not. The Jews, the - Greeks, the Romans, the Dutch, all lost their public spirit, their republican principles and habits, and their republican forms of government, when they lost the modesty and domestic virtues of their women.
The foundations of national morality must be laid in private families. In vain are schools, academies, and universities, instituted, if loose principles and licentious habits are impressed upon children in their earliest years. The mothers are the earliest and most important instructors of youth. The vices and examples of the parents cannot be concealed from the children. How is it possible that children can have any just sense of the sacred obligations of morality or religion, if, from their earliest infancy, they learn that their mothers live in habitual infidelity to their fathers, and their fathers in as constant infidelity to their mothers? Besides, the catholic doctrine is, that the contract of marriage is not only a civil and moral engagement, but a sacrament; one of the most solemn vows and oaths of religious devotion. Can they then believe religion, and morality too, anything more than a veil, a cloak, a hypocritical pretext, for political purposes of decency and convenience?"
Women are destroying everything(or more specifically, feminists, cultural Marxists, and liberals). But I don't really care anymore. I'm just going to play my fiddle while Rome burns. I neither think it can be saved, nor is there anything worth saving.
Feminism rose in the 60's as a response to the Playboy culture emerging in the 50's. Simply put men's commitment to one woman and their children began to wane.
The demographic change that spawned all of this came after the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940's - which drastically reduced death during and after childbirth. The historical proportion of females to males in western societies changed - there were many more women than men compared to historical norms. At one point in the 1990s, the ratio was similar to that seen immediately after the Civil War in the US.
Check the correlation in the gender ratio and birth rates in countries around the world. The higher the number of females to males, the lower the birth rate. Women have careers and fewer children in response to men unwilling to make a commitment to one woman and their children.
The long-run effect of this on young males is their permanent infantilization.
First let me say, I'm 35-years old. I have never been married, and I have no intention of ever being married. And I agree with your sentiments, the way things are now, you would have to be an idiot to get married.
Thus I have no intention whatsoever of trying to convince you to get married. I am merely a "social critic".
My point being, civilization has never existed without marriage and patriarchy, and it simply cannot exist without them. Western Civilization is currently dying, because it has taken for granted and turned its back on what actually made it great.
Dying is another word for evolving.
Know what this card means?
Not "death", but transformation.
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Culture isn't merely petty changes in clothing or music. Culture is a world-view. Most cultures are a reflection of their associated religions. And that religion creates the bedrock for that culture's values and "way-of-life". Without such a bedrock, societies become completely unstable, and tend to break apart, as there is nothing left to hold them together.
I do not believe America will last another hundred years. I can't imagine this country lasting another 50 years. There is nothing to tie us together. There is no American culture. There is no America. And most people have become so nihilistic, they see no point in absolutely anything.
How is not wanting kids "nihilistic"? And keep in mind that not everyone was meant to have kids.
What if every low-life whose kids grow up to be criminals stopped having kids? Within a generation you would have less crime, less poverty etc. All that is happening is men who were never meant to be Dads (like me) are doing the right thing and not becoming Dads. That will benefit society immensely.
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I think you misunderstand what they mean by "civilizing". Being uncivilized in this context is not about whether you commit crime, or if you work. It really boils down to selflessness.
People like you and me, we work, but we mostly only think of ourselves. We pay taxes, not because we want to, but because we have to. If we could get out of paying our taxes, we would. Everything we do becomes "does this benefit me?" And for the most part, the feelings of others isn't a major priority. To the extent that we consider other people's feelings at all, we have a generally pretty narrow focus. Maybe our close friends and family, but never "society".
It was never about "society". People are just more honest about it now which results in less corruption.
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As for MGTOW, it is basically the epitome of what I'm talking about. MGTOW(and meninism) is a response to feminism, and their incessant hatred and attacks on men. Why should a man deal with women at all, when in the vast majority of cases, we get punished for it? What benefit is there? Sex? You can get sex without having to deal with their crap, and even if you can't, there's porn.
I always say, the irony of feminism, is that men respect women less now than ever. As Dave Chappelle said, "Chivalry is dead, and women killed it".
No, MGTOW is more men saying "why do we have to put up with these gender roles too?" It isn't a response to feminism but a response to ages and ages of expectations people have of men. Why should I chase after women only to be trapped in a loveless marriage for the sake of procreation? If that is not my calling, why should I do so? There are plenty of other men who like the whole Norman Rockwell thing, and we are not going extinct any time soon.
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I don't believe this problem can be solved. So it is pointless to discuss it.
This is not a problem, it is a virtue. Society is changing from one based on collective obedience to an obsolete idea to individualism. Our society was once based on slavery and polygamy as well, and we survived ditching those old ideas as well.
The bottom line is enough people will still choose marriage and family that we won't go extinct any time soon. It is just that many of us were never cut out for that to begin with and in this new age we can and will find our own paths. In the words of one of the greatest thinkers in human history: "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Youth for centuries were corrupted. Only now are we seeing a generation free from such insanity.
It seems like so many men have lost their motivation to compete for success in modern society. I see so many guys who are in their lates 20s or early 30s and do nothing besides hold a mediocre job and play video games and watch sports. And of course, they are then unsuitable mates for women and so that further compounds their depression and need to tune out of society.
Anyone else noticing this?
What's wrong with this?
What is "success" -- accumulating as much paper as possible?
What is "success" -- accumulating as much paper as possible?
No, success is not necessarily about money. But success does usually entail at some point sharing a life with someone you fall in love with and sometimes choosing to have children. Which requires money, a marketable job skill. Men who stay in a perpetual state of adolescence are generally looked down on by all societies.
Many men do not want to risk being screwed-over when they get married, have kids, then Wifey dumps them...........and he is on the hook for 18+ years.
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