Libertarianism is dying, if not dead already (wages, Walmart, retire)
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Here is a short list of libertarian concepts that have become reality and are now part of the mainstream:
1. The end of forced conscription - Milton Friedman said his role in ending the draft in 1973 was his proudest acheivement, as this was an institution that is "incompatible with a free society."
2. School Choice - Now implemented in various forms across the country, from Chicago to Philadelphia, the entire state of Nevada, and nearly all of New Orleans. In NY, Gov. Cuomo, a strong proponent of school choice, is battling Mayor DeBlasio over the issue. Liberals fighting liberals over school choice, who woulda thunk it?
3. Auctioning Radio Spectrum for Private Use - First proposed by the economist Ronald Coase in 1959, his idea was mocked as being crazy. When he appeared before Congress the first question put to him was "Tell us Professor Coase, is this all a big joke?" In 1990 under Clinton the FCC begain auctioning spectrum, and we now have a much more efficient use of this resource that is more closely aligned to consumer demand.
4. Expiration of the ExIm Bank Charter - As of July 1 2015, the New Deal era crony capitalist institution's authority was allowed to expire for the first time in 81 years.
5. Marriage equality - Now enshrined by the Supreme Court
6. Increasing awareness and push back against the surveillance state
It's clear that the Libertarian party exists outside the mainstream of world politics, where the alternatives are all about minor variations on ever bigger government and less freedom for people. Even so, slowly but surely Libertarian principles are being accepted into the mainstream. I don't care if a Libertarian is ever elected President, or if they ever hold a majority in Congress. What matters is that we continue to move in the direction of enabling more people to enjoy the blessings of real liberty and freedom.
1. I agree individuals or groups of individuals should not be excluded from the rest of society, community, Country. By definition, the common good includes everyone.
2. As for an unregulated free market, folks tend to view a restriction when they don't agree or endorse the moral value behind the limitation. For example, the high-tariffs on free trade in the 19th century outraged slave-owners. At the same time, those same folks did not find it objectionable to trade human beings on the free market. Restricting trade was objectionable whether it was people or goods, it limited the freedom of the market.
Another example is child labor laws. The Cotton Factories Regulation Act in 1819 proposed banning employment of children under the age of 9. Older children were allowed to work but were limited to working 12 hours a day. Back in the day this was a huge controversy, opponents saw it as undermining freedom of contract & sanctity of the free market.
In a restriction-free labor market, it's likely most native workers would be replaced by cheaper & possibly more productive immigrant workers.
From a broader perspective, the history of capitalism is the nearly constant struggle over the boundaries of the market, i.e. rules, laws, agreements, regulations.
True, and that's why libertarians continue to push for the true free market. It takes time, and not everyone will be persuaded right away.
The child labor laws is a really interesting subject because our first instinct is to think its good for children and families, but I don't think it is. One good example is looking at some Asian countries...you had children working in factories, etc. which isn't really a good thing on its own, but the reason they were there in the first place is because the family needed more money. Then child labor laws were introduced and they weren't allowed to work anymore. What ended up happening is even worse...the family still needed money, so the kids ended up going into things like illegal prostitution and other dangerous and degrading things to scrounge up cash.
I also support a world with no borders, so businesses can hire the best workers regardless of who they are or where they're originally from. The unproductive workers will naturally end up in less desirable jobs if they don't get their act together. That's the invisible hand at work again.
Here is a short list of libertarian concepts that have become reality and are now part of the mainstream:
1. The end of forced conscription - Milton Friedman said his role in ending the draft in 1973 was his proudest acheivement, as this was an institution that is "incompatible with a free society."
2. School Choice - Now implemented in various forms across the country, from Chicago to Philadelphia, the entire state of Nevada, and nearly all of New Orleans. In NY, Gov. Cuomo, a strong proponent of school choice, is battling Mayor DeBlasio over the issue. Liberals fighting liberals over school choice, who woulda thunk it?
3. Auctioning Radio Spectrum for Private Use - First proposed by the economist Ronald Coase in 1959, his idea was mocked as being crazy. When he appeared before Congress the first question put to him was "Tell us Professor Coase, is this all a big joke?" In 1990 under Clinton the FCC begain auctioning spectrum, and we now have a much more efficient use of this resource that is more closely aligned to consumer demand.
4. Expiration of the ExIm Bank Charter - As of July 1 2015, the New Deal era crony capitalist institution's authority was allowed to expire for the first time in 81 years.
5. Marriage equality - Now enshrined by the Supreme Court
6. Increasing awareness and push back against the surveillance state
It's clear that the Liberatarian party exists outside the mainstream of world politics, where the alternatives are all about minor variations on ever bigger government and less freedom for people. Even so, slowly but surely Libertarian principles are being accepted into the mainstream. I don't care if a Libertarian is ever elected President, or if they ever hold a majority in Congress. What matters is that we continue to move in the direction of enabling more people to enjoy the blessings of real liberty and freedom.
Dave
Yep. Just take what you can get so others have some examples to look at. The track record should be in favor of freedom.
The Socialist party was strong in the early 20th century in the US. They all but disappeared after the 30's because during the FDR era, the Democrats co-opted all of their ideas. Similarly the LP is moribund now, but many of their ideas have been adopted by the GOP. The club for growth/RSC wing of the GOP is basically libertarian.
Here is a short list of libertarian concepts that have become reality and are now part of the mainstream:
1. The end of forced conscription - Milton Friedman said his role in ending the draft in 1973 was his proudest acheivement, as this was an institution that is "incompatible with a free society."
2. School Choice - Now implemented in various forms across the country, from Chicago to Philadelphia, the entire state of Nevada, and nearly all of New Orleans. In NY, Gov. Cuomo, a strong proponent of school choice, is battling Mayor DeBlasio over the issue. Liberals fighting liberals over school choice, who woulda thunk it?
3. Auctioning Radio Spectrum for Private Use - First proposed by the economist Ronald Coase in 1959, his idea was mocked as being crazy. When he appeared before Congress the first question put to him was "Tell us Professor Coase, is this all a big joke?" In 1990 under Clinton the FCC begain auctioning spectrum, and we now have a much more efficient use of this resource that is more closely aligned to consumer demand.
4. Expiration of the ExIm Bank Charter - As of July 1 2015, the New Deal era crony capitalist institution's authority was allowed to expire for the first time in 81 years.
5. Marriage equality - Now enshrined by the Supreme Court
6. Increasing awareness and push back against the surveillance state
It's clear that the Libertarian party exists outside the mainstream of world politics, where the alternatives are all about minor variations on ever bigger government and less freedom for people. Even so, slowly but surely Libertarian principles are being accepted into the mainstream. I don't care if a Libertarian is ever elected President, or if they ever hold a majority in Congress. What matters is that we continue to move in the direction of enabling more people to enjoy the blessings of real liberty and freedom.
Dave
I agree that there are ideas libertarians thought of first that do make sense and we should have had them enacted. The issue I have is with saying no government is the answer and we need to be self-governing entirely. I see enough disagreements that would turn a peaceful anarchy into chaos based on what is and isn't done by society. I don't see the free market having all the answers. If it did, don't you think by 1932, the stock market and the market in general would have recovered? No instead it as one goddamn thing after another whether it was the stock market crash, people bailing on the banks and leaving those still in with the check, the dust bowl, etc. Hoover basically tried hands off economics with supply side theory and it didn't work at all to trickle its way down to those in Hoovervilles waving their Hoover Flags when the wind blew. That is until FDR took office and put more people to work through public works projects.
The Socialist party was strong in the early 20th century in the US. They all but disappeared after the 30's because during the FDR era, the Democrats co-opted all of their ideas. Similarly the LP is moribund now, but many of their ideas have been adopted by the GOP. The club for growth/RSC wing of the GOP is basically libertarian.
The New Deal Democrats were a mix of progressives remaining from 1910 as well as socialist party ideas. Today we see more libertarian leaning Republicans. Whether they are or not they are can be up for debate. I honestly think libertarian leaning Republicans are what we will see unless the republicans implode over the next two presidential elections.
I agree that there are ideas libertarians thought of first that do make sense and we should have had them enacted. The issue I have is with saying no government is the answer and we need to be self-governing entirely. I see enough disagreements that would turn a peaceful anarchy into chaos based on what is and isn't done by society. I don't see the free market having all the answers. If it did, don't you think by 1932, the stock market and the market in general would have recovered? No instead it as one goddamn thing after another whether it was the stock market crash, people bailing on the banks and leaving those still in with the check, the dust bowl, etc. Hoover basically tried hands off economics with supply side theory and it didn't work at all to trickle its way down to those in Hoovervilles waving their Hoover Flags when the wind blew. That is until FDR took office and put more people to work through public works projects.
a) most libertarians do not say "no government"-- rather "limited government."
b)Hoover was more progressive than libertarian. There is a famous quote by FDR aide Rexford Tugwell who said "We didn't admit it at the time, but practically the whole New Deal was extrapolated from programs Hoover started..."
I agree that there are ideas libertarians thought of first that do make sense and we should have had them enacted. The issue I have is with saying no government is the answer and we need to be self-governing entirely. I see enough disagreements that would turn a peaceful anarchy into chaos based on what is and isn't done by society. I don't see the free market having all the answers. If it did, don't you think by 1932, the stock market and the market in general would have recovered? No instead it as one goddamn thing after another whether it was the stock market crash, people bailing on the banks and leaving those still in with the check, the dust bowl, etc. Hoover basically tried hands off economics with supply side theory and it didn't work at all to trickle its way down to those in Hoovervilles waving their Hoover Flags when the wind blew. That is until FDR took office and put more people to work through public works projects.
Beyond wutitiz's comment that Libertarians don't say "no government," they say "limited government," what is your basis for believing that we ever had a free market, whether in 1932 or at any other time?
Beyond wutitiz's comment that Libertarians don't say "no government," they say "limited government," what is your basis for believing that we ever had a free market, whether in 1932 or at any other time?
Dave
Under Coolidge and Hoover, we didn't see government spending. What we saw instead was cuts and trickle-down economics. This is John Maynard Keynes' (of Keynesian School of Economics fame) theory for what happened. The financial policies of Coolidge and Hoover came largely from Secretary of Treasury Andrew Mellon. Mellon pushed for lower tax rates than those under Wilson with World War 1. The top tax rate dropped from 73% to 24% between 1922 and 1929, despite maintaining the progressive income tax system. Up until the Depression, it helped decrease the National Debt, but it rose again after 1929 after the tax system failed to produce revenue due to the effects of the Depression on the economy, even on the rich. Mellon predicted infrastructure from the tax cuts but it didn't really do enough, partially due to the economics after 1929.
Mellon allegedly advised Hoover to liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate farmers, liquidate real estate... it will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up from less competent people. If he really said that (it is debatable) then it was actually a free-market idea. Hoover did however followed anti-recessionary measures but due to the magnitude, they never did work and we stayed in economic malaise well into World War II, even after it.
That is a rather silly aspect that you should be able to turn people away if they wear Nikes. You won't get many people to agree with that partially due to licensing. The NFL has a Nike contract as does several universities that can't be breached easily so do deny them for wearing a jersey that just so happens to have the swoosh because they can't find an older one with the same player and/or team. All we can hope is that enough people can decide to dump Nike sneakers and Converse (another brand they own) for Sketchers, Adidas, Puma and New Balance and go to Starter, Reebok, Russell, And One, etc. for workout and everyday shirts and shorts.
I do think boaters played a role in Winston but part of that is outside the scope of this thread because I know some have coaches that they follow which is why my alma mater a non BCS school, kept a bad coach for several years despite turning around recently. Had that coach been let go, they would lose that booster.
You're still looking at this thru the statist POV IMO. Remember, I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I don't believe in an involuntary state. I'm a libertarian with small "l"not a statist Rand Paul conservative.
The reason why your boycotts don't work is that the state (and their so-called "private" counterparts like Nike, Chipotle, etc) have forcefully (thus immorally) attained the means of production, retain them thru force, and then force you to use your mind, body, and personal means of production to keep their power.
That's what the statist fails to see. When Walmart wants water...sewer lines and aqua ducts are planned around their needs - not yours. When Walmart wants power...electrical grids are built and designed to fit their needs...not yours. When Walmart wants a road built or paved to its store it gets it. You don't.
You can't defeat this kind of power thru boycotts because they still own the means of production. The only way to beat this system is the true free market where each individual owns their mind, body, labor, and personal means of production. It would be much more effective if 500 people in a town of 10,000 were allowed to own themselves instead of a boycott of Walmart. Depending on who the 500 were they could form a voluntary association and refuse service to anyone (of the remaining 9,500) who shopped at Walmart.
Roofers, plumbers, brain surgeons, mechanics, IT guys....say all in town were in the 500 who formed the pact.
Those other 9,500 would have to think real hard about going to Walmart with that pressure on them. It sure beats walking past a dope with a sign that has an x thru Walmart on it as they go in for diapers.
But we aren't allowed to do that now. The state says you must use your body, mind, labor, and personal means of production to serve everyone.
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