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Old 08-22-2015, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,879,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
I've never read Ayn Rand.
Neither have I.

I have read The Federalist Papers, Locke, Smith, Ricardo, Hayek and Friedman.

I now label myself a classical liberal or libertarian because socialists stole the term liberal.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:38 AM
 
79,913 posts, read 44,167,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
Neither have I.

I have read The Federalist Papers, Locke, Smith, Ricardo, Hayek and Friedman.

I now label myself a classical liberal or libertarian because socialists stole the term liberal.
Liberal doesn't mean what it once did, that is for sure. When I was younger "liberal" was associated far more with libertarian ideas than it is today.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,325,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The Libertarian Party has officially been around since 1971. They are as mature as they'll ever be.

They haven't even so much as won a school board or a village council.

The party has always been led by inferiors incapable of leading, planning and organizing, who make nothing happen very slowly.
I live in Luzerne County (Wilkes-Barre area), Pennsylvania, where Democrats outnumber Republicans two to one, and the fiefdom of an old-line New Deal Democrat (Kanjorski -- at the time 2nd in seniority on the banking committee behind Barney Frank). Until 2010, Kanjorski ran virtually unopposed, save for a man named Steve Urban who held the required role of minority county commissioner. In 2010, Lou Barletta, a man from a self-made immigrant family, unseated Kanjorski using immigration as a wedge issue. Mr. Barletta hails from Hazleton, in "lower Luzerne" which has gotten some national attention over immigration-related issues in recent years.

Meanwhile, in 2014, a confirmed Libertarian named Betsy Summers ran (unsuccessfully, of course) for a state legislative seat in a "locked" Democratic district and pulled slightly better than the local RINOs. The point here being that there is little difference when a known libertarian is substituted as an alternative to the usual local-issues-centered Democratic swill. We can exert influence on local issues and provide an alternative to living in the past which, at least locally, is now the province of the Democrats.

That's about all .... but it's an improvement over what came before.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 08-22-2015 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,879,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Liberal doesn't mean what it once did, that is for sure. When I was younger "liberal" was associated far more with libertarian ideas than it is today.
Barry Goldwater went from being a liberal to a conservative to a libertarian without ever changing his basic philosophy.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,879,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
I live in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, where Democrats outnumber Republicans two to one, and nobody ran against the incumbent Democrat (Kanjorski -- at the time 2nd in seniority on the banking committee behind Barney Frank). Until 2010, Kanjorski ran virtually unopposed, save for a man named Steve Urban who held the required role of minority county commissioner. In 2010, Lou Barletta, a man from a self-made immigrant family based in Hazleton, unseated Kanjorski using immigration as a wedge issue.

Meanwhile, in 2014, a confirmed Libertarian named Betsy Summers ran for a state legislative seat in a "locked" Democratic district and pulled slightly better than the local RINOs. The point here being that there is little difference when a known libertarian is substituted as an alternative to the usual local-issues- based Democratic swill. We can exert influence on local issues and provide an alternative to living in the past which, at least locally, is now the province of the Democrats.

That's about all .... but it's an improvement over what came before.
In his book "Free to Choose" Milton Friedman argued that the Socialist Party was the most successful American political party of the 20th Century if you measured parties by the success of enacting their agenda. Electoral success is not the only way to influence legislative outcomes.

http://libertarianmajority.net/socia...-1928-platform
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:49 AM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,919,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
Barry Goldwater went from being a liberal to a conservative to a libertarian without ever changing his basic philosophy.
I don't think anyone, including Mr. Goldwater, considered him a liberal. Granted, in today's political climate ...
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,879,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
I don't think anyone, including Mr. Goldwater, considered him a liberal. Granted, in today's political climate ...
A classical liberal in the same vein as Hayek and Friedman. I suggest reading Hayek's "Why I am not a Conservative" and ask yourself of the three classifications Hayek discusses in his editorial which classification you would put Goldwater in.

Hayek and Friedman both rightfully claimed to be liberals in the original meaning of the term.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,325,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
I don't think anyone, including Mr. Goldwater, considered him a liberal. Granted, in today's political climate ...
Libertarians (capital or small 'l') have countered that point by depicting ourselves as "classical liberals", in the sense of Voltaire and Locke, for the 45+ years I've been involved with them.
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,879,874 times
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Why I am Not a Conservative by F. A. Hayek

Notice here in this editorial the socialists Hayek refers to are modern liberals while the liberals he refers to are now labeled libertarian.

Amazing how this 50+ year old editorial still applies today.
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,325,556 times
Reputation: 20827
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
Why I am Not a Conservative by F. A. Hayek

Notice here in this editorial the socialists Hayek refers to are modern liberals while the liberals he refers to are now labeled libertarian.

Amazing how this 50+ year old editorial still applies today.
Exactly! As previously stated, libertarianism is a philosophy, and suited to realpolitik only as a general guideline rather than the ideological manifestos which tend to get a lot of people hurt .. or worse. Libertarianism is logically consistent (Rand's great contribution was to demonstrate that point over and over again).

Like Faulkner's Dilsey from The Sound and the Fury, we will simply endure.
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