If race is fake, aren't nations also fake? (Brown, elect, claim)

[hakkarin]

The basic premise behind the claim that race is fake is that races cannot be precisely defined (what is "black" and what is "white" etc) and that they are basically social constructs, and thus fake. But this got me thinking, if this is true then doesn't that mean that basically all forms of identity are fake? What is an "American"? What is a "British" person? You can't apply a scientific definition to those words. Nations are basically cultural constructs just like race is. Now of course both nations as well as races share some degree of common heritage, but the fact remains that it's not possible to define exactly what prerequisites a person must fulfill in order to be a "true" member of race X or nation X. To me it does not make sense to claim races are fake because they are constructed and yet still believe at the same time that nations are real even though they are also constructs. If rallying around the idea of race is evil then why is it ok to also rally around the idea of the nation?

[buddy5]

Originally Posted by hakkarin

The basic premise behind the claim that race is fake is that races cannot be precisely defined (what is "black" and what is "white" etc) and that they are basically social constructs, and thus fake. But this got me thinking, if this is true then doesn't that mean that basically all forms of identity are fake? What is an "American"? What is a "British" person? You can't apply a scientific definition to those words. Nations are basically cultural constructs just like race is. Now of course both nations as well as races share some degree of common heritage, but the fact remains that it's not possible to define exactly what prerequisites must fulfill in order to be a "true" member of race X or nation X. To me it does not make sense to claim races are fake because they are constructed and yet still believe at the same time that nations are real even though they are also constructs. If rallying around the idea of race is evil then why is it ok to also rally around the idea of the nation?

Careful now, if you use pure logic, all the progressive/PC people's brains will explode.

[UNC4Me]

Nations, unlike races, are governed by enforceable laws that specifically define who is and who isn't a citizen of that nation. It's completely possible to define who has met the prerequisites to be a member of a nation.

[hakkarin]

Originally Posted by UNC4Me

Nations, unlike races, are governed by enforceable laws that specifically define who is and who isn't a citizen of that nation. It's completely possible to define who has met the prerequisites to be a member of a nation.

Nazi Germany also created laws about what they considered "true Aryans" to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

How does a nation create specific laws about who is or isn't a true member of their national identity? Simply calling people a certain word or name doesn't really mean much. If you took a bunch of different people from the same nation and asked them what they are like then they would probably be fairly different in-spite of being a part of the same "nation".

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by buddy5

Careful now, if you use pure logic, all the progressive/PC people's brains will explode.

this critique matters more to right wingers than it does the left seeing as they are the ones always saying we are just one race, but that "Murica....."

[UNC4Me]

Originally Posted by hakkarin

Nazi Germany also created laws about what they considered "true Aryans" to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

How does a nation create specific laws about who is or isn't a true member of their national identity? Simply calling people a certain word or name doesn't really mean much. If you took a bunch of different people from the same nation and asked them what they are like then they would probably be fairly different in-spite of being a part of the same "nation".

National identity is not the same as citizenship. One is more a self selected designation while the other is based on you meeting the criteria set by law. One can consider themselves "Italian" and yet be a U.S. Citizen and not an Italian citizen by law. When I use the words American or British, I'm referring to the citizenship the person holds.

[Cape Cod Todd]

I think the world is becoming a jumbled up mess of race, nations and losing its character.
The world is a smaller place thanks to technology and the jet age but I can remember a time when one could travel to a country say in Europe and you would be immersed in the culture of that countries people. Today there are so many immigrants everywhere that demand change and don't bother to melt into the society that they chose to move into that we are all losing what makes us unique.

Eventually race will not matter because everyone will be a shade of brown. The question of heritage in a particular region of the planet will be changed by the immigrants that flood into it and alter what it once was.

Is it progress or a step backwards? Will there even be nations in the civilized world? Some may say that the Western America is becoming Mexico North..

[jacqueg]

Originally Posted by hakkarin

The basic premise behind the claim that race is fake is that races cannot be precisely defined (what is "black" and what is "white" etc) and that they are basically social constructs, and thus fake. But this got me thinking, if this is true then doesn't that mean that basically all forms of identity are fake?

Not really. My identity as a blue-eyed, fair-haired person is hardly fake.

"Nation" in the sense you are using it - as something that exists as a blood lineage - is a social construct. But I don't use the word "nation" that way. To me, anyone who is a US citizen is part of the American nation. And a person who was born in America but later emigrates to another country and gains citizenship there is no longer American.

Originally Posted by hakkarin

What is an "American"? What is a "British" person? You can't apply a scientific definition to those words. Nations are basically cultural constructs just like race is. Now of course both nations as well as races share some degree of common heritage, but the fact remains that it's not possible to define exactly what prerequisites a person must fulfill in order to be a "true" member of race X or nation X. To me it does not make sense to claim races are fake because they are constructed and yet still believe at the same time that nations are real even though they are also constructs. If rallying around the idea of race is evil then why is it ok to also rally around the idea of the nation?

Again, it depends on what you mean by "rally around the idea of the nation". I'm no flag-waver, I don't think Americans are particularly special or blessed/chosen by a deity.

But this is my home, and it holds a special place in my heart. And there is an American cultural sensibility that is more comfortable to me than, say, the cultural sensibility I found in Japan when I lived there for a year. I loved it - but it wasn't home.

I don't think it is evil for Americans - or any nation - to identify what their interests are and pursue them. It becomes evil when Americans - or any nation - think that their interests should override those of other nations and should be enforced at the point of a gun.

[ReineDeCoeur]

The modern idea of race as described above is a farce imho, but other definitions of race are not.

These definitions are valid to me:

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the Celtic race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.


For a number of people, our race changes depending on where we are. For those who were raised strongly with racial identity and/or easily fall into certain groupings, it is likely easier and more important for them to identify racially. For many, race is their culture somehow.

[iNviNciBL3]

Yes, the only label that makes sense is "human"

Your race and or nationality doesn't really mean anything.