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Old 09-03-2015, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
2,681 posts, read 2,168,890 times
Reputation: 5165

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
See how you twist things.

1. I didn't describe the knives I confiscated.
2. You can't describe the knife the perp in this case had.
3. The loaded gun I confiscated was not a pocket knife.

Maybe you've smacked yourself in the head too many times.
Please, no excuses. It doesn't matter what kind of knife or gun you confiscated. You suggested that, even if the deceased had a knife, the officers should have been able to disarm him, and you cited your experience as an educator disarming schoolchildren as a basis for comparison.

What would you think if a cop tried to tell you how to function as a school principal based on his experience on the street? That's about the same as you presuming to pass judgment on what an officer should/can do or not do in a street encounter based on your experiences with schoolchildren. The fact that you may have a graduate degree and consider yourself an intelligent person means absolutely nothing when it comes to handling situations on the street. You don't learn how to be a cop from a book, from the movies, nor from your imagination.

Have a little respect for police officers who take on a dangerous job even if you sometimes disagree with how they do it. Your job has its unique challenges, and so does theirs. You do strike me as an intelligent person in spite of your somewhat speculative and emotional posts. Don't undermine your own credibility by pretending that you know how to do a cop's job, and that you have the skills to do it.

 
Old 09-03-2015, 10:33 AM
 
9,837 posts, read 4,609,968 times
Reputation: 7292
if this were a video showing a member of the public shooting someone with their hands up, you cop lovers would be calling for execution.



The only reason any of you are saying "wait for investigation" is because you favor police over people and police over human rights.



Time and again we are seeing 100% proof police over reacting, murdering and hiding behind their buddies who "investigate" and find the most stupid excuses to protect the people they work hand in glove with.


Where is the justice for the dude from Pasco WA who was gunned down in public with raised hands , witnesses and video.

6 months later and Pasco prosecutor is still stone walling and blocking investigations. 6 months and no results, no charges no justice.
The police forces and local prosecutors have closed ranks and are blocking every path forward, to protect the cops who publicly murdered a man.


Justice delayed is no justice at all. I fully understand why some people give up reason and resort to rioting and encouraging hatred of police.
 
Old 09-03-2015, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,759 posts, read 26,041,296 times
Reputation: 33880
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnTrips View Post
I wasn't referring to stats on generic police shootings per se, but rather to stats/records of DOJ/FBI investigations into incidents of alleged use of excessive force by police. That data has been compiled by the DOJ Civil Rights Division for many years, well before 1994. Do you not believe that the FBI keeps records of its investigations?

As to state agency data, when the fed govt investigates an entire police dept., as it did recently in Missouri, all relevant data is subpoenaed.
What percent of lethal force incidents do you think are investigated by the FBI? In my experience that is quite unusual.
 
Old 09-03-2015, 11:02 AM
 
35,309 posts, read 52,122,154 times
Reputation: 30999
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnTrips View Post
For what its worth, make that twenty feet. The knife can be in your chest faster than someone can draw a pistol from that distance. This is common knowledge in law enforcement. Not to mention that if your first shot fails to stop, he will be on you stabbing repeatedly.
You would feel confident that if some one were standing 20ft away from you with gun drawn and aimed that you could get a knife in him before you got shot?,in this case it seemed to be at least 2 officers.
Also where is this story coming from that the guy had a knife?from the video the guy was just standing there with at least one hand up in the air and although we cant see it i'd presume his other hand is also up in the air as two cops have their guns drawn on the guy,
Also is there an audio to this video as some seem to think the guy was dis obeying a cops request. i dont hear anything of the sort.
Me thinks some in this topic are fabricating a story just to fit their own agenda.
 
Old 09-03-2015, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
2,681 posts, read 2,168,890 times
Reputation: 5165
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
What percent of lethal force incidents do you think are investigated by the FBI? In my experience that is quite unusual.
Lethal force incidents as such are not investigated as a matter of course. They come to the attention of the Bureau in the guise of civil rights complaints, usually either from the alleged victim's family, or less often, from local PDs who are not comfortable handling the investigation themselves for any number of reasons. Civil rights complaints that result in a death are a subcategory of excessive force complaints. I am not sure how these may be categorized otherwise by the FBI, outside of the civil rights category.

The percentage of total police shootings investigated? That depends on the percentage that are referred to the Bureau for investigation in any given year. I would like to say that it is a substantial percentage, but I really don't know. To be honest, my familiarity with these matters also dates back to the '80s and '90s. My original point in bringing all of this up was that police officer misconduct, and investigation of misconduct, is hardly a new development in this country, regardless of what the media saturation may suggest.

As to whether the number of per capita police incidents involving misconduct that results in death has increased or stayed the same, that is an important question, but I really don't know the answer. More importantly, I don't know of any simple solutions to the issue either way. I tend to think that more and better training is always good, assuming the taxpayers are willing to foot the bill (or assuming that there are taxpayers in the jurisdiction at all). Raising requirements is often mentioned, tho the truth is that many departments are happy if they can find enough applicants who don't have criminal records, never mind advanced degrees. Plus, again, to draw better people you might have to pay them more.

My personal view is that there are many things in life that we do because because we think they are right, more so than because we expect to always have good results. Investigating cop shootings is one of those things.

Last edited by CapnTrips; 09-03-2015 at 12:30 PM..
 
Old 09-03-2015, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
2,681 posts, read 2,168,890 times
Reputation: 5165
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
You would feel confident that if some one were standing 20ft away from you with gun drawn and aimed that you could get a knife in him before you got shot?,in this case it seemed to be at least 2 officers.
Also where is this story coming from that the guy had a knife?from the video the guy was just standing there with at least one hand up in the air and although we cant see it i'd presume his other hand is also up in the air as two cops have their guns drawn on the guy,
Also is there an audio to this video as some seem to think the guy was dis obeying a cops request. i dont hear anything of the sort.
Me thinks some in this topic are fabricating a story just to fit their own agenda.
I agree that the existence of a knife does not seem to have been established at this point.

You'd be surprised what lousy shots some cops are. They don't get as much firearms training as you might think, and the ones that are good shots got that way because they put in their own personal time at the range. It is not all unusual to find gunfights where many rounds are exchanged at close range and no one is hit.

Now if I were the deceased, standing there with my hand(s) up and cops pointing a gun at me, I sure wouldn't try to rush them. But, as you may be aware, not everybody you meet on the street is rational, particularly if they are, for example, coming off a domestic dispute and facing a possible parole violation. Convicted criminals are not people who are known for their impulse control. In addition, in spite of public perception, handguns are not terribly powerful weapons compared to long weapons, and depending on where one is hit, it is not so impossible that someone armed with a knife can take a bullet or two, cross a distance of 20 feet, and still end up on top of you doing damage (distance in the video appears to be less).

So the scenario is not as obvious as it appears. If the suspect was armed, or at any time before he was frisked, there was some degree of danger to the officers. It has occurred to me that the public might come to view LEOs differently if there were an effort made to educate the public on the real parameters of the job.

Last edited by CapnTrips; 09-03-2015 at 12:03 PM..
 
Old 09-03-2015, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,402 posts, read 23,989,654 times
Reputation: 32713
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnTrips View Post
Please, no excuses. It doesn't matter what kind of knife or gun you confiscated. You suggested that, even if the deceased had a knife, the officers should have been able to disarm him, and you cited your experience as an educator disarming schoolchildren as a basis for comparison.

What would you think if a cop tried to tell you how to function as a school principal based on his experience on the street? That's about the same as you presuming to pass judgment on what an officer should/can do or not do in a street encounter based on your experiences with schoolchildren. The fact that you may have a graduate degree and consider yourself an intelligent person means absolutely nothing when it comes to handling situations on the street. You don't learn how to be a cop from a book, from the movies, nor from your imagination.

Have a little respect for police officers who take on a dangerous job even if you sometimes disagree with how they do it. Your job has its unique challenges, and so does theirs. You do strike me as an intelligent person in spite of your somewhat speculative and emotional posts. Don't undermine your own credibility by pretending that you know how to do a cop's job, and that you have the skills to do it.
You're passing judgement on police officers, as well. It's just that you're on the other side of the argument. And YOU "don't learn how to be a cop from a book, from the movies, nor from your imagination".

I have tons of respect with police officers who do their job professionally, as indicated by their oath of office and standards and procedures outlined by most police organizations. Last Saturday in Denver I had a brief, but very pleasant conversation with a police officer on duty at the Civic Center who was keeping an eye on the homeless.

But that does NOT cure the issue of ALL of these pretty much WEEKLY abuses of police power.
 
Old 09-03-2015, 12:21 PM
 
Location: NYC
20,550 posts, read 17,577,682 times
Reputation: 25616
In Europe and Asia where there's strict gun control. The police use necessary force to subdue the criminal without guns. Are we so lazy here to simply open fire without even try to apprehend the person? Unless the person has a gun, there's no reason a cop cannot use force or some training. In the case of the video, even if the person had a knife it wasn't long enough to show and would not be of life threat to the police.

Any person with a gun knows the police were shooting to kill not to apprehend since they were shooting at close range at vital organs.

I think this incident will open other inquiries and further erode police and citizen relationship until there are new transparency rules or vindication through prosecution of the police.

It's only gonna get worse as more and more people will become vigilant with the cameras.

If I was the police union boss, I would hold press conference right now holding those accountable.
 
Old 09-03-2015, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
2,681 posts, read 2,168,890 times
Reputation: 5165
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You're passing judgement on police officers, as well. It's just that you're on the other side of the argument. And YOU "don't learn how to be a cop from a book, from the movies, nor from your imagination".

I have tons of respect with police officers who do their job professionally, as indicated by their oath of office and standards and procedures outlined by most police organizations. Last Saturday in Denver I had a brief, but very pleasant conversation with a police officer on duty at the Civic Center who was keeping an eye on the homeless.

But that does NOT cure the issue of ALL of these pretty much WEEKLY abuses of police power.
On the contrary. At no time in this thread have I indicated that I think these cops are either guilty or innocent of wrongdoing. My main point has been simply that people ought to withhold judgment until all the facts are in. I know, its a forum and we're here to post our opinions, but I felt that given the controversy regarding these kinds of incidents, it would be a good idea to remind ourselves that reality is neither black nor white.

As to my source of information on police standards and procedures, for various reasons I will not post my background. One of reasons is that I think my posts should stand or fall on their own merit, not on appeals to authority. But don't assume I am talking out of my hat.
 
Old 09-03-2015, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Kihei, Maui
569 posts, read 777,280 times
Reputation: 1135
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
Why do we have so many apologists for criminals? This guy had a lengthy criminal record, including assaulting a police officer. He had just got done beating up his wife and child, he we holding a knife (lethal weapon), he wasn't following police commands to drop the knife and get on the ground, etc, etc. etc.

I commend these officers for doing their job and doing it well. I don't feel sorry for Mr. Flores. Not one bit.

Just like I don't feel sorry for Mikey Brown, Freddie Grey or Travon Martin. (and no, it's not because they're minorities. I don't feel sorry for stupid white criminals either).
There are solid arguments being made on both sides, but your inability to differentiate between people apologizing for criminals and having a respect and appreciation for the civil rights our country was founded on indicate you have nothing of value to bring to this discussion.

Take a civics class, learn a little and then maybe you'll be ready to join a grown-up conversation.
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