Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,363,738 times
Reputation: 40731
Advertisements
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
Oh, come on. Not the old Danbury letter again. You are perfectly aware that J's letter was written to reassure the Baptists of their freedom to worship as they pleased, without interference from the government, or without fear of the establishment of a national church, as in Britain, Sweden, Denmark, and other European countries. You imply that the Founders wanted to restrict the rights of Christians or limit their participation in government. Not true...
Not at all, but I have yet to see anything supporting the OP's allegation about the 'myth' of separation of church and state.
Don't like the Danbury letter? It's hardly difficult to find any number Jefferson's letters that are not at all flattering about Christianity and/or its alleged place in the founding of this country or its government.
Perhaps you'll like this better ? :
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites" –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
or perhaps this ? :
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
It is very interesting that nearly ANYTHING can be brought up and cussed/discussed EXCEPT the actual words of the First Amendment.
Every time that is mentioned, it is ignored. Nobody wants to talk about it except those which quote it!
Yes, Thomas Jefferson DID write: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
Jan. 1, 1802, Letter to the Connecticut Danbury Baptist Association
However, Jefferson also had a lot to say about the writing of the Constitution, AND the Bill of Rights (which is almost a carbon copy of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which he pretty much wrote). If he felt that "wall of separation" was so very important, I wonder why he never mentioned it anyplace except in a private letter to a Church Association? One would think that if it was so very important, it would be incorporated into the official writings and in the Constitution itself. Instead, Freedom of religion and the free exercise thereof was added as an afterthought as the First in a series of ten amendments which came to be known as the Bill Of Rights, which was only added because many of the original colonies refused to ratify the new Constitution if they were not added.
Just something to think about...
See, this puts us in a conundrum. You are, as far as I know, a mortal human. As was Judge Bazile. Yet you both point to the same Bible and you both claim to be absolutely sure.
So for those of us who are not really putting much merit in any sort of scripture, God's will presents a bit of a muddled picture. You try to present it as a choice between God's will and Man's will, when it's pretty obvious that Man has no clue what God's will actually is. As evidenced by different Men busily contradicting each other, yelling at the top of their lungs that they, and they alone, know the true will of God.
Well, see, the problem here is that you are trying to turn this into a theological discussion, when one party to the discussion (you) isn't even a believer. It isn't going to work.
I will say only this much: No, we do not know God's will completely. What we do know is what He has already revealed to us in His Word. And I do know that nowhere in his revealed Word (that I know of) is it wrong to marry someone of another race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA
Oh, Christ was a very cool guy. Who could hate him? "Go love your fellow man as I loved you", awe-inspiring. It's the rabid portion of his followers who are - irksome.
Well that isn't a quote from Jesus, but I suppose it could be construed.
Well, Jesus himself was pretty "rabid" if you would read some of the things he said to the "teachers of the law" in his day. He likened them to a "pit of vipers," in one place. He did not have kind words for them at all. And He also said things like, "I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 That leaves no possibility of any other way to heaven. That kind of leaves out any other religion, including Roman Catholicism, because they believe that it is Mary who decides who gets into heaven and who doesn't.
Nevertheless, no matter what you believe, the Founders and the majority of the Colonists were Christians, and they were Calvinist Christians (that means Protestants). It is unlikely that they had any wish to keep God out of politics in the sense that separationists believe today. History makes it clear that they fled because of religious persecution by the Church of England, which represented one sect of Christianity. They found the Church of England had not fully embraced the Reformation, and was really very much like the Roman Church (why the Puritans split off and were called "Puritans"). They would not be part of it, and they were persecuted for their "apostasy." They fled.
So, in America, it was understandable that they wanted nothing to do with an official state church. That is why we have the First Amendment. It has nothing to do with keeping God out of political life.
I don't recall having posted this "over and over" again, but people like you keep trying to make your claim that we have "separation of church and state" (your definition of it) over, and over again.
I have read the Constitution, and further, I have taken a Constitution course (Constitution 101 and Constitution 201). I have read the Constitution, and I understand the context of the First Amendment. I know what the Founders intended, because I have also studied American History (back when history was taught).
Have you read and studied the Constitution?
The Founders in no way intended the First Amendment to mean as you "Separationists" interpret it. There is no evidence anywhere that can be found to prove your case.
"The Founders", meaning that they all agreed on everything that went into the Constitution?
Do you think others, including actual legal scholars, have not also read and studied the Constitution. And the bottom line, they often interpret it differently. You regressives don't have the only legal view of the Constitution. In fact, your time is past.
Not at all, but I have yet to see anything supporting the OP's allegation about the 'myth' of separation of church and state.
Don't like the Danbury letter? It's hardly difficult to find any number Jefferson's letters that are not at all flattering about Christianity and/or its alleged place in the founding of this country or its government.
Perhaps you'll like this better ? :
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites" –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
or perhaps this ? :
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
OR these ---
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799.
"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Virginia Baptists, 1808.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
Why don't you and the other fanatics start your own country. You could name it jesus land, slavery could be legal, stoning or burning people would be legal. And the oppression of women and other undesirable's can finally be gotten rid of like you dream about.
Funny you mention the oppression of women. Every once in a while I go to church, sometimes a Catholic church, sometimes a Methodist church. I was at a Catholic church just about 2 weeks ago and one of the scripture readings -- and then the homily -- was about wives being totally subservient to their husbands. Finally, I just got up and left.
A couple of days later I asked a male Catholic friend if his wife was "totally subservient" to him. His wife spoke up and said, "Good lord, V---- has been to church". So I asked her if she was "totally subservient" to her husband, and she said, "Hell no".
Yes, a clear case of appeasement, clear back then. The Muslim were attacking our ships!
But who is arguing that we are a Christian nation? We are arguing whether the police should have bumper stickers affirming our motto, and the meaning of the First Amendment.
And you Separatists are in the minority. Most Americans don't have a problem with it.
Most Americans didn't have a problem with slavery at one time. Most Americans didn't have a problem with imprisoning Japanese American during WWII.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,363,738 times
Reputation: 40731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven
It is very interesting that nearly ANYTHING can be brought up and cussed/discussed EXCEPT the actual words of the First Amendment.
Every time that is mentioned, it is ignored. Nobody wants to talk about it except those which quote it!
Yes, Thomas Jefferson DID write: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
Jan. 1, 1802, Letter to the Connecticut Danbury Baptist Association
However, Jefferson also had a lot to say about the writing of the Constitution, AND the Bill of Rights (which is almost a carbon copy of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which he pretty much wrote). If he felt that "wall of separation" was so very important, I wonder why he never mentioned it anyplace except in a private letter to a Church Association? One would think that if it was so very important, it would be incorporated into the official writings and in the Constitution itself. Instead, Freedom of religion and the free exercise thereof was added as an afterthought as the First in a series of ten amendments which came to be known as the Bill Of Rights, which was only added because many of the original colonies refused to ratify the new Constitution if they were not added.
Just something to think about...
Are there letters from Jefferson stating there should be no separation of church and state? Seems far easier to find instances of Jefferson being less than enthusiastic about religion in general and Christianity specifically than to find any advocacy for the mingling of church and government.
Just something else to think about............................................. .............................................
Not at all, but I have yet to see anything supporting the OP's allegation about the 'myth' of separation of church and state.
Don't like the Danbury letter? It's hardly difficult to find any number Jefferson's letters that are not at all flattering about Christianity and/or its alleged place in the founding of this country or its government.
Perhaps you'll like this better ? :
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites" –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
or perhaps this ? :
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
Or maybe these...?
"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799.
"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Virginia Baptists, 1808.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object."
Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
The Separation of Church and State mantra has, as I noted above, been turned inside out from its original intent, which was to protect religion from interference by the government, not -- as you and others assert -- to protect our society, institutions, and government from religion. Surely we as a people -- and for your benefit, I include all North Americans, have enough common sense to determine the proper place of God and Caesar, without draconian pronouncements from our blackrobes that Christmas carols and Santa Claus are threats to our children's impressionable minds.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
