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Old 01-30-2008, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
194 posts, read 361,025 times
Reputation: 52

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
I think what gets lost in the argument is that so many people equate right to choose with pro abortion.
I am pro choice.. but that doesn't mean that I am for abortion.
HOwever.. I do not believe that it's my right to push my belief on another human being.
That being said..
If you believe that a zygote (that's what it's called at conception right?) is a human life and therefor you abort it , you feel it's wrong.. than you are against having an abortion.. ..

However. someone who faces that decision for themselves may not believe that same way you do and so for them that zygote is NOT yet a life, therefore they abort it...
At some piont that zygote becomes other things.. and I believe it's up to the person who is in the situation to make the choice that they feel is right for them and in line with THEIR own personal beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be.
I for one would NOT have an abortion. NEVER.. but then Im' at a different stage of my life. My cousins 19 year old daughter was faced with that dlima herself.. she had a choice, either abort or have the baby and keep it or have the baby and give it up for adoptin. She had to choose what she felt her concience could bear. It was a HARD decision.. BUT.. she HAD a choice.. something that is so great about this country. She ultimate chose to have the baby AND keep it.. but she also has a strong support system in her/our family that it was the best decision for her.. one that she could live with. It may not be right for all facing that decision. Who is anyone to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do.
But clearly you don't have a problem with forcing your beliefs on an unborn human being? What about the "best decision" for the baby, clearly dismemberment isn't it?!
By the time a woman has an abortion, her baby is well past the zygote phase and in fact has a heart beat and recognizable human features, as well as brain waves! One can use any terminology they wish, but it will never change the reality that what is being aborted is a member if the human race, as two human beings cannot create something that is not human.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:09 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,285 posts, read 54,079,395 times
Reputation: 40586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
As a Libertarian, one who advocates less government, I am very consistent in this respect. I believe that once human brain waves are recognized in the fetus, its only measurable distinction from an animal at this point in technology, it should be afforded the same right to life, liberty, and property rights as any other human. The pro-choice strawman argument is not consistent in that to truly be pro-choice one must advocate the right of the woman to kill the fetus/baby, for ANY reason, up until the umbilical cord is cut.


I think there's two different issues here, neither of which negates the pro-choice argument.

1) Should any abortion be allowed?

2) If so, within what parameters?

Pro-choice says Yes to #1, there's room for debate in #2
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
30,976 posts, read 21,514,894 times
Reputation: 9675
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG View Post
Way to take it to the extreme!! It's impossible to debate with someone who spews such ridiculousness!
So all of a sudden the life of the unborn doesn't seem so precious.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,251,866 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
A lame attempt at twisting my words, I never sad a blastocyst/embryo was not human, I said it was not a human being.

And with the law standing as it currently does I'd say it's up to the Pro-Life people to prove logically that a fertilized egg is a human being, until then I'll continue to agree with things the way they are.
You use the biological terminology to divert the focus from what is a growing human being. This is not unlike the ugly "clump of cells" phraseology used by others who employ your tactics.

When does the "clump of cells" cross over into "baby" territory? Four weeks? Eight weeks? You are on extremely thin ice -- especially if you've seen photographs of babies at those stages.

"The Law stand[s] as it currently does" because the SCOTUS decreed that it was so -- no legislator ever passed a law, no voter ever voted. I am astounded that so many on the "pro-Choice" side are smugly satisfied with having such momentous things as legalized manslaughter imposed on the country by five old white men in black robes.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:15 PM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,707,649 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by katzenfreund View Post
Give it a rest will you?

I don't know how many times I have said that I am not proposing to make the billboards illegal.
However they have never changed my mind, in fact they have done quite the opposite.
So seeing a billboard with a message of saving lives makes you want to go out and murder more babies?

Wow. So what about those "Eat more chicken" billboards from Chick Fil A? Does that make you want to go out and have a steak?

So what if we had a billboard that encouraged infanticide? Would you rebel by beginning to cherish innocent life?
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:15 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,698,954 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
Ok, so you seem to feel passionately with heart and soul in forced birth for women. So how should this be enforced, so that every precious unborned baby gets saved? Should every pregnant woman be required to be monitored 24 hours a day? If she shows any signs of taking steps to get an abortion, she would be arrested and confined to prison, closely monitored until she gives birth. I bet most people wanting abortion banned would love such an arrangement and be fully supportive of it.
It falls under the legal principle of being reasonable and prudent. No different than how parents actions are judged after the child is born.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
194 posts, read 361,025 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
With all due repect I don't think you've proven anything. Saying something is human is simply not the same as saying something is a human being. A blastocyst or an embryo is no doubt human but I have yet to see a reaoned, logical argument that establishes it as a human being anymore than an acorn is an oak tree. Potential beings and beings are vastly different entities.
Oh how I love the "acorn is not an oak" analogy!
An acorn is an oak at the infant stage. An oak tree is an oak at the adult stage. Both are oaks. An acorn (the infant) can potentially become an oak tree (the adult), but it never becomes an oak- it already is a complete oak, even in its embryonic (seed) stage. In the same way, human beings at any stage of development are still complete human beings. Saying an acorn isn't an oak tree only means that an infant isn't an adult, which I don't deny.

Call it whatever you want, it won't change the reality of what it is.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:20 PM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,670,045 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
I think there's two different issues here, neither of which negates the pro-choice argument.

1) Should any abortion be allowed?

2) If so, within what parameters?

Pro-choice says Yes to #1, there's room for debate in #2
The crux of the pro-choice argument is that the baby is part of the woman's body and she should have sole discretion as to how its treated. Since the baby is still a part of the woman's body up until the umbilical cord is cut, then the pro-choice argument should still be valid. If the viability argument is then used, then the pro-choice argument is then negated. Either one believes in choice or one doesn't. A more reasonable argument would be that one believes the woman should have the choice up until the fetus/baby is considered viable, at which point its rights should be recognized. Still, at this point the woman's body argument is still invalid.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
194 posts, read 361,025 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
So all of a sudden the life of the unborn doesn't seem so precious.
Can I ask why you seem to find it so repulsive that one would view unborn life as precious? Is a mother not allowed to feel warm and fuzzy about the life within their womb? I ask, how do you feel about your unborn offspring- or does it all depend on wantedness? Basically a wanted baby is precious, all other unwanted babies are expendable and inconvenient.
My main point is that I won't waste my time with people who can discuss logically!
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:25 PM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,707,649 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
The crux of the pro-choice argument is that the baby is part of the woman's body and she should have sole discretion as to how its treated. Since the baby is still a part of the woman's body up until the umbilical cord is cut, then the pro-choice argument should still be valid. If the viability argument is then used, then the pro-choice argument is then negated. Either one believes in choice or one doesn't. A more reasonable argument would be that one believes the woman should have the choice up until the fetus/baby is considered viable, at which point its rights should be recognized. Still, at this point the woman's body argument is still invalid.
So what about conjoined twins? Should one of them be able to unilaterally decide to kill the other one if it's causing an inconvenience? If you believe that a woman can do whatever she wants with a baby up until the cord is cut, I don't see how you could possible disagree with this...

As far as the viability argument, when does a baby actually become viable? Yes, it's possible for it to survive, even if born something like 1-2 months early, but even after that, it's only with a lot of help. Even a full term baby cannot survive on its own for very long. In practical terms, there is very little difference between a baby at birth -1 month and a baby at birth + 1 month...
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