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Old 10-17-2015, 09:12 AM
 
28,575 posts, read 18,596,190 times
Reputation: 30812

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Her modern perspective ignores the reality of American from 1865-1955, a period of separation and unequal.
You actually need to push the endpoint into the 70s at least. The Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts in the mid-60s were the major game changers that actually began integration. School integration didn't begin until after that, and the last time I sat in segregated movie seating was on July 20, 1969. Major colleges were still struggling with the concept of integration into the early 70s. Integration took changes in how budgets were formed, even how roadways and city facilities were planned.

It needs to be fully grasped by young black people that integration was not a wave-of-the-wand accomplishment, but has actually been a gradual process over more than thirty years. What they see today is a new thing, literally just now, and even that not for everyone.

Quote:
Had Black leaders pushed for equality without integration, there would have been no mechanism to get Whites to transfer wealth. Whites wanted that separation while Blacks wanted the materials gains from integration.
The problem with segregation was that "equal" was not permitted under any circumstances. The actual details of the Rosa Parks bus incident are symbolic of the hypocrisy of the situation. Rosa Parks was not sitting in the white section of the bus. She was sitting in the black section--separate, as she was supposed to be--but a white man entered the black section of the bus and demanded her seat. That's what the entire situation was: Separate until we had something truly worthwhile, then it was destroyed, suppressed, or taken.

Quote:
If Blacks had aggressively campaigned for separation paid for my Whites, White American would have imported foreign labor and left Blacks high, dry, and either ignored or forcefully pushed aside.

i think decades of being denied rights and access made the problems of integration all but inevitable. While it is easy to map out a three generation integration plan that would have made integration immediately enrichening to Black America, once the flood gates are open, no one would have accepted the rationale and rationalism of gradualism. in the end the distribution of 10% doing well, 10-30 doing decently and an underclass of upwards of 60% all but a fait accompli not unlike small underdeveloped nations being overwhelmed by trade with a superpower.

S.
Good points to ponder.

 
Old 10-17-2015, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
3,007 posts, read 6,260,867 times
Reputation: 3310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You actually need to push the endpoint into the 70s at least. The Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts in the mid-60s were the major game changers that actually began integration. School integration didn't begin until after that, and the last time I sat in segregated movie seating was on July 20, 1969. Major colleges were still struggling with the concept of integration into the early 70s. Integration took changes in how budgets were formed, even how roadways and city facilities were planned.

It needs to be fully grasped by young black people that integration was not a wave-of-the-wand accomplishment, but has actually been a gradual process over more than thirty years. What they see today is a new thing, literally just now, and even that not for everyone.

The problem with segregation was that "equal" was not permitted under any circumstances. The actual details of the Rosa Parks bus incident are symbolic of the hypocrisy of the situation. Rosa Parks was not sitting in the white section of the bus. She was sitting in the black section--separate, as she was supposed to be--but a white man entered the black section of the bus and demanded her seat. That's what the entire situation was: Separate until we had something truly worthwhile, then it was destroyed, suppressed, or taken.

Good points to ponder.
I chose 1955 b/c up through that point (at least), it was clear that integration was sought.

But your arguments are very sound. Thank you. I happily amend. And on the front end, we can go back to Frederick Douglass and the rise of Abolitionism, say 1845 or so, so 1845-1975.

And if I can extent to the primacy of the Disco and Funk era when so much love was poured out to unify, so how about 1845-1979?

Thanks also for your reply in general and agree with the comment of the young generation. While I recognize the need for each generation to define their struggles in their own terms, their tendency to discount the efforts of those that went before them and the reasoning behind those efforts have always troubled me. As it seems to apply to all colors and across many other issues, I wonder if it is a Darwinian survival mechanism, for to have total recall of the entirety of human history and its barbarity would likely drive us to madness.

S.
 
Old 11-06-2015, 10:27 AM
 
72,817 posts, read 62,167,325 times
Reputation: 21773
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
Well, if we were thoroughly integrated we would all be mixed
Even in societies where there is such mix, there is still racism. It becomes about who is darker/lighter, colorism,etc.
 
Old 11-06-2015, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
38,968 posts, read 27,360,104 times
Reputation: 15910
I think segregation is still around. Sometimes by design. And sometimes by choice. Knee-jerk reaction is to blame racism and discrimination.

I think people should be just left alone. I think many (if not majority) of the people DO NOT mind living with people from other racial background as long as they can peacefully co-exist. So for those who do not want to peacefully co-exist with other people from other races, I think they should be given some kind of freedom to form their own territory. This way, they won't blame their own problems on other people, scapegoating will slowly be eliminated.

In another word, let the businesses hire whomever they want to hire, let the businesses fire whomever they want to fire, let business owners select their own desirable customers.. Let free market works the magic.

I don't believe in forcing others to be more accepting.

Example, my best friend Mike is originally from Ohio. He grew up in a very conservative small white neighborhood and he never had anything good to say about certain race. He joined the Marine Corps and eventually found a home here in Southern California. He is my brother's best friend too. (because they were both Marines, and they shared the same culture, and he viewed my brother as one of his own, just another "white" guy although my brother is obviously mixed.) I will be honest, he would rather live with white folks because he is more familiar with the food, culture, and he thinks white neighborhoods are safer for his kid. (I don't blame him for thinking this way, by the way) So I won't judge.

He is the "minority" in his neighborhood, but according to him, there are people of different color or religious background he can trust, there are people of different color or religious background he just cannot trust.

My friend is by no means a racist, although he, just like everybody else, sometimes, likes to paint a whole group of people with one broad brush, (this is also understandable) He doesn't mind living with others as long as he feels he can co-exist peacefully with them. He is now more accepting because he has lived among.. well... "the others"

I think Racial integration is a fascinating concept, but I think it should happen naturally.
 
Old 11-06-2015, 11:07 AM
 
5,072 posts, read 2,279,148 times
Reputation: 3325
The country is integrated? When did this happen?
 
Old 11-06-2015, 11:58 AM
 
72,817 posts, read 62,167,325 times
Reputation: 21773
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I think segregation is still around. Sometimes by design. And sometimes by choice. Knee-jerk reaction is to blame racism and discrimination.

I think people should be just left alone. I think many (if not majority) of the people DO NOT mind living with people from other racial background as long as they can peacefully co-exist. So for those who do not want to peacefully co-exist with other people from other races, I think they should be given some kind of freedom to form their own territory. This way, they won't blame their own problems on other people, scapegoating will slowly be eliminated.

In another word, let the businesses hire whomever they want to hire, let the businesses fire whomever they want to fire, let business owners select their own desirable customers.. Let free market works the magic.

I don't believe in forcing others to be more accepting.

Example, my best friend Mike is originally from Ohio. He grew up in a very conservative small white neighborhood and he never had anything good to say about certain race. He joined the Marine Corps and eventually found a home here in Southern California. He is my brother's best friend too. (because they were both Marines, and they shared the same culture, and he viewed my brother as one of his own, just another "white" guy although my brother is obviously mixed.) I will be honest, he would rather live with white folks because he is more familiar with the food, culture, and he thinks white neighborhoods are safer for his kid. (I don't blame him for thinking this way, by the way) So I won't judge.

He is the "minority" in his neighborhood, but according to him, there are people of different color or religious background he can trust, there are people of different color or religious background he just cannot trust.

My friend is by no means a racist, although he, just like everybody else, sometimes, likes to paint a whole group of people with one broad brush, (this is also understandable) He doesn't mind living with others as long as he feels he can co-exist peacefully with them. He is now more accepting because he has lived among.. well... "the others"

I think Racial integration is a fascinating concept, but I think it should happen naturally.
This is the way I see things. Given my own experiences, my family history, and other things, my view on segregation and integration are different.

When I look at history, I don't look at it as "let it happen naturally". Things had happened "naturally" for a long time. The result is that Blacks were subjected to oppressive laws and pretty much shut out of society.

I here some people to let the free market take care of stores who refuse service to Blacks. That practice existed for a long time, and stores of that type did just fine. History shows that the only way integration has ever occurred is under laws being passed, and alot of this took place with many people kicking and screaming. It took place when people decided they had enough of the Jim Crow laws, the refusal of service, the bad things that were being done. It happened because people had to stand up for themselves.

I grew up in a predominantly White, conservative area. It was also in a very "redneck" county. I had alot of problems in terms of racism, and in terms of fitting in. In many cases, I didn't fit in with many of the Whites or the Blacks. For me, it was peculiar. Being Black, I would encounter some racism. Were there nice kids around, of course. I also got made fun of for "not being Black enough" for things such as how I talked, being a nerd,etc.

I had to learn early that I could not just let things slide. I learned that if I didn't stand up for myself, I would get ran over. I am the type of person who is very pro-integration, pro-interracial marriage,etc. I've embraced it. I also feel that in some cases, it has been a one way street. This is one reason I get upset when many people paint a whole group of people with one broad brush. I consider it to be very wrong. I look at it like this. "I'm not like the persons you're speaking of, so when you paint everyone with the same broad stroke, you're doing it to me as well".

I feel like if things were to "happen naturally", that many things would have never happened.
 
Old 11-06-2015, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
38,968 posts, read 27,360,104 times
Reputation: 15910
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
This is the way I see things. Given my own experiences, my family history, and other things, my view on segregation and integration are different.

When I look at history, I don't look at it as "let it happen naturally". Things had happened "naturally" for a long time. The result is that Blacks were subjected to oppressive laws and pretty much shut out of society.

I here some people to let the free market take care of stores who refuse service to Blacks. That practice existed for a long time, and stores of that type did just fine. History shows that the only way integration has ever occurred is under laws being passed, and alot of this took place with many people kicking and screaming. It took place when people decided they had enough of the Jim Crow laws, the refusal of service, the bad things that were being done. It happened because people had to stand up for themselves.

I grew up in a predominantly White, conservative area. It was also in a very "redneck" county. I had alot of problems in terms of racism, and in terms of fitting in. In many cases, I didn't fit in with many of the Whites or the Blacks. For me, it was peculiar. Being Black, I would encounter some racism. Were there nice kids around, of course. I also got made fun of for "not being Black enough" for things such as how I talked, being a nerd,etc.

I had to learn early that I could not just let things slide. I learned that if I didn't stand up for myself, I would get ran over. I am the type of person who is very pro-integration, pro-interracial marriage,etc. I've embraced it. I also feel that in some cases, it has been a one way street. This is one reason I get upset when many people paint a whole group of people with one broad brush. I consider it to be very wrong. I look at it like this. "I'm not like the persons you're speaking of, so when you paint everyone with the same broad stroke, you're doing it to me as well".

I feel like if things were to "happen naturally", that many things would have never happened.
Interesting, and I appreciate your opinion, green_mariner. They say we are who we are through experiences, and it is true.
 
Old 11-06-2015, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,083 posts, read 20,406,955 times
Reputation: 10343
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat lou View Post
The country is integrated? When did this happen?
It's ongoing. And fortunately it started because I can't imagine living in a backward society.

[as a 2nd class "citizen"]
 
Old 11-06-2015, 12:15 PM
 
6 posts, read 6,127 times
Reputation: 11
We never had segregation up here in Canada. We love black people.
 
Old 11-12-2015, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Fairfax County, VA
3,719 posts, read 5,673,150 times
Reputation: 1480
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat lou View Post
The country is integrated? When did this happen?
By force. Did you watch the video?
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