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On an online forum? Probably not. Like you mentioned subsequently, it's the discussions with people you already know and respect that may influence someone to actually change their mind.
I find that threads like this are a great way to test my own understanding and refine my points so that I may be more effective at convincing others in person. They have also made me better at picking out fallacious arguments. However, internet threads do tend to turn into a shouting match, and have caused me to lose patience easier than I have in the past.
But getting back to the efficacy of changing people's minds, it is definitely possible, because internet forums did change my mind.
I grew up without ever shooting guns or being exposed to them, and I didn't really think about guns much but when I did I thought they should be banned. Then a coworker took me shooting, taught me how to do it safely, and I was hooked. The learning curve was steep at first. I love when you start to learn about a new topic and it's like drinking from a fire hose. I started dabbing my toe in gun forums, and I remember promising myself at the time that I wouldn't let myself become a "brainwashed gun nut." There were a lot of numbskull arguments that I read which reaffirmed my belief that a lot of gun owners are complete nutjobs.
Yet there were also a small but significant number of very smart people making erudite, compelling arguments in favor of gun rights, why they need to be preserved, and why the various gun control ideas will not achieve their purported goals. I respected these posters because although their passion sometimes led to zeal and less-than-friendly interactions, their arguments were so well thought out, supported, and articulated that I realized that my previous position supporting gun control (in general) was in fact the brainwashed position, founded on ignorance.
A great post.
And yes, there's plenty of idiots supporting any issue. Pro gun, anti gun, pro abortion, anti abortion, pro business, pro environment... There's plenty of idiots, period... doesn't mean the issue is necessarily right or wrong just because of this.
On an online forum? Probably not. Like you mentioned subsequently, it's the discussions with people you already know and respect that may influence someone to actually change their mind.
I find that threads like this are a great way to test my own understanding and refine my points so that I may be more effective at convincing others in person. They have also made me better at picking out fallacious arguments. However, internet threads do tend to turn into a shouting match, and have caused me to lose patience easier than I have in the past.
But getting back to the efficacy of changing people's minds, it is definitely possible, because internet forums did change my mind.
I grew up without ever shooting guns or being exposed to them, and I didn't really think about guns much but when I did I thought they should be banned. Then a coworker took me shooting, taught me how to do it safely, and I was hooked. The learning curve was steep at first. I love when you start to learn about a new topic and it's like drinking from a fire hose. I started dabbing my toe in gun forums, and I remember promising myself at the time that I wouldn't let myself become a "brainwashed gun nut." There were a lot of numbskull arguments that I read which reaffirmed my belief that a lot of gun owners are complete nutjobs.
Yet there were also a small but significant number of very smart people making erudite, compelling arguments in favor of gun rights, why they need to be preserved, and why the various gun control ideas will not achieve their purported goals. I respected these posters because although their passion sometimes led to zeal and less-than-friendly interactions, their arguments were so well thought out, supported, and articulated that I realized that my previous position supporting gun control (in general) was in fact the brainwashed position, founded on ignorance.
Good post. Thank you. Regarding your comment, "However, internet threads do tend to turn into a shouting match, and have caused me to lose patience easier than I have in the past" I definitely relate to that!
I'm simply saying that the current Congress seems to have lost it's way when it comes to actually governing and moving the country forward. It's not a new situation, or unique to one party. What I'm saying is that there needs to be compromise on both sides, and in the end everyone wins. Government and society is not a zero sum game where one side wins and another loses.
Fair enough. I will contend that there's not much more that the gun community can be expected to give up. Maybe universal background checks for all transfers of ownership as long as no serial number information is recorded, just a check to ensure the recipient is not prohibited. All the rest of the "compromising" needs to happen from the other side. For starters, we want concealed carry reciprocity; removal of suppressors, SBRs and SBSs from the NFA; and strict scrutiny required for evaluating challenges to laws regulating guns.
Good post. Thank you. Regarding your comment, "However, internet threads do tend to turn into a shouting match, and have caused me to lose patience easier than I have in the past" I definitely relate to that!
I like the turn that this thread is taking, everyone seems so much more polite over the last few pages!
Contrast that to the first couple posts by many of us here. Hostile, aggressive and insulting. It's no wonder we weren't listening to eachother!
Fair enough. I will contend that there's not much more that the gun community can be expected to give up. Maybe universal background checks for all transfers of ownership as long as no serial number information is recorded, just a check to ensure the recipient is not prohibited. All the rest of the "compromising" needs to happen from the other side. For starters, we want concealed carry reciprocity; removal of suppressors, SBRs and SBSs from the NFA; and strict scrutiny required for evaluating challenges to laws regulating guns.
I don't see how that's not reasonable. I think a lot of the patchwork of, pardon the word, crap, that we have now is because we, as a society couldn't come to a bigger common sense compromise and since you can't get checks or competency licensing, people are attacking it from the back end and banning the object instead of the user.
At the end of the day I think everyone can agree that some people should not have guns. Guns in and of themselves are a tool, and only when those tools are abused do people get hurt. The rub is finding a way of keeping the unqualified out of the toolbox, to stretch the analogy.
To me, the simplest is a license not unlike a drivers licence. A defined standard of background and competency that is universally accepted, without restriction. There should be minimal/no competency needed on long guns and a higher standard for handguns.
I like the turn that this thread is taking, everyone seems so much more polite over the last few pages!
Contrast that to the first couple posts by many of us here. Hostile, aggressive and insulting. It's no wonder we weren't listening to eachother!
OK everyone, group hug!!
Seriously though, it's easier to be combative with and dismissive of people you don't know, especially when separated by the Internet. Maybe we've been arguing long enough that we can let our guard down a little and start talking more civilly.
Seriously though, it's easier to be combative with and dismissive of people you don't know, especially when separated by the Internet. Maybe we've been arguing long enough that we can let our guard down a little and start talking more civilly.
That and we've been working hard to ignore the children who spout crap.
Any other suggestions on how to tackle the issue? Realistically, clean sheet it. In your perfect world, how would you keep guns out of the hands of the people that shouldn't have them, yet don't restrict access.
That's how we come up with a solution.
I think there's been agreement that universiality is a key. Jurisdictions can't ban what another has allowed. Hand in hand with that, I think there needs to be a consensus on a minimum to overcome the resistance in places like NYC.
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