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I think the real difference is not when LIFE begins.. because cells are life... its a matter of consciousness and congnative abilities.... a bunch of goop while comprised of cells is definetely alive.. but does it know its alive? does it feel that its alive? that is what has been addressed with the abortion issue... and scientists have concluded that while a fetus is alive.. it is dependent on the mother host therefore is an extension of the mother until it is fully developed to exist on its own... cognative ability is measured by the developement of the brain and brain stem.... and it is pretty clear that at the time when abortions are legal to take place.. there is no ability for the fetus to be cognatively alive... later on durring the term of pregnancy is a different story and where everyone's questions of is it alive or is it not come into play.. and the law has already ruled against late term abortions... I don't understand why everyone is spewin their brains out on this forum over some goopy mess... I've said it before and I'll say it again... if you want to start attacking reproductive measures.. then where do we stop? do we start sending policemen into houses to arrest men out there who are jerking off in the shower? because certainly sperm is "alive" and is the seed of a human being..
do you see how this issue is a slippery slope... and why science is important in determining facts? The problem is.. fundamental christians are constantly at war with the scientific community because much of what they have determined is not in line with what they preach or what the "bible says". lets not kid ourselves.. "the church" is a power... it is organized by and of people who are human beings... and someone or something that has power over the masses is not going to be a fan of ANYTHING that undermines its authority... so here we are... with debates back and forth.. about something that really is someone's personal business in relation to their personal health and the health of their families....
Scientists have concluded many things -- and been proven wrong later. Plenty of fully-grown humans live lives that make you woder if they know that they are alive, and if they have functional cognitive abilities. Scientists who have looked into their childrens' eyes may find their clinical distance eroding. Religion in this context is a red herring. Individual decisions in the area of life and death impact all of society and cannot be ignored in a culture which wishes to retain its humanity.
Scientists have concluded many things -- and been proven wrong later. Plenty of fully-grown humans live lives that make you woder if they know that they are alive, and if they have functional cognitive abilities. Scientists who have looked into their childrens' eyes may find their clinical distance eroding. Religion in this context is a red herring. Individual decisions in the area of life and death impact all of society and cannot be ignored in a culture which wishes to retain its humanity.
what is humanity? and you're right about the chances of not knowing.. but it's a matter of where people get their facts or truth from... science.. while open to being wrong.. constantly is testing hypothesis' and actively persuing fact and truth.. while religious beliefs are based on a feeling.. and asks no questions and assumes correctness... if I was a betting man.. and was in vegas... I'd put my chips on the guy that's testing and adjusting his views with facts and discoveries.. rather than the guy that just says he knows because he "feels" he's right
I don't understand how the issue impacts our culture in a negative way?
Fact is.. since abortion has become legal.. fewer and fewer abortions have been taking place... so I think there is evidence to show that its not a matter of providing abortions.. but providing choices....
of course then you have many other questions that come into play... do you believe that every human being is created by jesus.. and is holy etc etc? or do you believe that our existance follows a logical rooted course and is yet to be determined? My point is.. we have to be careful when we push our "stories" in regards to what humanity is.. because all of us could be wrong.. and I wouldn't think of myself as powerful enough or important enough to inflict laws in dealing with procreation.. based on my personal "story" because while I might know I'm right... it is very probable that I'm not... which goes back to allowing free agency when it comes to this issue.. life is not some beautiful equal socialistic wrealm where resources and opportunities are available to everyone... if life were like that.. then I could side more with your notion in protecting humanity... but we are in a wrealm of existance that is competitive, brutal, harsh, and unaccepting... disillusioning yourself to those realities based on a nice "story" or "feeling" just isn't in conjunction with reality... bottom line... I'm not saying outlaw it.. or promote it.. I'm saying let it exist in accordance with the law... where the law is based on facts and science... because science is open to change.. therefore the law should be as well...we're human.. we make mistakes.. science makes mistakes..but science is not one to cover up its mistakes.. it embraces new discoveries.. while the "church" is not.. many who are against abortion are too quick to write it off based on closed minded premises....that is why its not pro-life against pro-death... its pro-life against pro-CHOICE
Well, has anyone changed anyone's mind yet? Then I suggest that everything that can be said about abortion has been said a gazillion times and it may be time to shut up and just accept the fact that it's legal and even if it wasn't women from all socio-economic/religious/age groups would still have them.
Naw, it's not unreasonable to ask them. What IS unreasonable is to expect that "asking" them will have a bit of effect on their actual behavior.
Are our public schools not proof enough of this truth?
So what you are saying is people are just too stupid and irresponsible?
We shouldn't ask them to work, to not drink or drive or for them not to kill. i mean, its just to much to expect. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
I think the real difference is not when LIFE begins.. because cells are life... its a matter of consciousness and congnative abilities.... a bunch of goop while comprised of cells is definetely alive.. but does it know its alive? does it feel that its alive? that is what has been addressed with the abortion issue... and scientists have concluded that while a fetus is alive.. it is dependent on the mother host therefore is an extension of the mother until it is fully developed to exist on its own... cognative ability is measured by the developement of the brain and brain stem.... and it is pretty clear that at the time when abortions are legal to take place.. there is no ability for the fetus to be cognatively alive... later on durring the term of pregnancy is a different story and where everyone's questions of is it alive or is it not come into play.. and the law has already ruled against late term abortions... I don't understand why everyone is spewin their brains out on this forum over some goopy mess... I've said it before and I'll say it again... if you want to start attacking reproductive measures.. then where do we stop? do we start sending policemen into houses to arrest men out there who are jerking off in the shower? because certainly sperm is "alive" and is the seed of a human being..
do you see how this issue is a slippery slope... and why science is important in determining facts? The problem is.. fundamental christians are constantly at war with the scientific community because much of what they have determined is not in line with what they preach or what the "bible says". lets not kid ourselves.. "the church" is a power... it is organized by and of people who are human beings... and someone or something that has power over the masses is not going to be a fan of ANYTHING that undermines its authority... so here we are... with debates back and forth.. about something that really is someone's personal business in relation to their personal health and the health of their families....
So, is it ok to kill retards and others who have no real 'conciousness or cognitive abilities'?
The thign for me is too ..I can see both sides of the argument. AND since there is no DEFINITIVE answer to when a baby is a baby etc. etc.. .. and it's all based on beliefs..that then every person has the right to follow whatever it is that they believe and make that decision based on their own beliefs.. not be forced into having NO CHOICE because some people feel one way, some feel another. So. . i won't argue when someone feels a life is a life.. because it's kind of irrelevant really and since we all won't ever agree on that, then each will believe what they believe or not.. and isn't this country based on following your own beliefs?
Well, has anyone changed anyone's mind yet? Then I suggest that everything that can be said about abortion has been said a gazillion times and it may be time to shut up and just accept the fact that it's legal and even if it wasn't women from all socio-economic/religious/age groups would still have them.
So because people can still get it done we should just forget about it? People continue to kill and murder yet there are laws against that. People still buy drugs, yet their are laws against that. People still drink and drive, yet there are laws against that. We should just forget about those things too, i mean, people will still do them.
By the same measure the only person who should judge a murderer is themselves, because only they know what situation they are in and the impact to their lives.
Your mischaracterization of my statement is simply your opinion on the matter, and an invalid one, at that. The supreme law of the land does not equate abortion with murder. You do. It's your opinion, nothing more. Get over yourself.
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I don't agree with your statement at all. It's akin to saying those who oppose murder shouldn't murder, but I'm fine with anyone who thinks killing is ok to go out and do it.
Of course you're free to disagree. What you're not free to do is to cast my statement in terms equivalemnt to the most heinous of crimes. You should be ashamed. But I doubt that you are.
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The basis all comes down to what constitutes life, and are we willing to protect it. It has nothing to do with control.
In your opinion, again. Banning abortion because you find it personally revolting (as do I) is absolutely controlling some other individual's options. That is simply not your place. Nor mine. What a woman does or does not do in the case of her pregnancy is her decision. Nothing can be more personal.
If you think abortion is traumatic to the person making the decision, what do you think it's like to the child that is being murdered?
Is being against murder somehow a controlling power trip? Funny, I thought it meant that I think all members of our society should be protected from gruesome, undeserved death, even when they happen to inconvenience someone else...
By equating abortion with murder, you're guilty of precisely the logical error the OP cites. The legal system has clearly and repeatedly found that the two are nowhere close in equivalence. You're simply trying to gain some traction for your personal position through the use of inflammatory language.
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I find it puzzling that you can hold this view when clearly the vast majority of pro-lifers here have suggested responsible use of birth control.
To lend any credibility to your statement, you'll need to back it up with something more conclusive than your opinion.
Your mischaracterization of my statement is simply your opinion on the matter, and an invalid one, at that. The supreme law of the land does not equate abortion with murder. You do. It's your opinion, nothing more. Get over yourself.
Of course you're free to disagree. What you're not free to do is to cast my statement in terms equivalemnt to the most heinous of crimes. You should be ashamed. But I doubt that you are.
In your opinion, again. Banning abortion because you find it personally revolting (as do I) is absolutely controlling some other individual's options. That is simply not your place. Nor mine. What a woman does or does not do in the case of her pregnancy is her decision. Nothing can be more personal.
Hippo Crate. You are only using opinions to base your judgement as well, as did the justices who sat on the case. Maybe you should get over yourself, and just be responsible, don't worry, its not as hard as you think.
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