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Old 02-05-2008, 11:09 AM
 
2,265 posts, read 3,722,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
So you don't consider the fetus to be a person? Because if you honestly consider a fetus to be a person or "innocent life", you have to oppose abortion in all cases with the possible exception of mother's health. Otherwise, being the child of rape is a capital offense or they aren't really people and can be killed.
From a legal stand point I doubt we could ever reach a day where it's that black and white. Like anything else compromises have to be made. I'm not saying I agree with it but I can't see anything legally changing to make abortions illegal without some kind of compromise. It's not about what I do or don't oppose. We need to take a step back and look at the big picture.
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Old 02-05-2008, 12:21 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,152,076 times
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I wouldn't mind seeing logic used in any debate for a change. Then again, the use of logic is probably seen as some communist manifesto to undermine the faith based rationalization of the day.
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:44 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,389,934 times
Reputation: 4013
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG View Post
Let me simplify things for you:
Complex things need to be considered in their complexity, else one risks the signficant errors of over-simplification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG View Post
Dictionaries define "person" as: a human being or a member of the human race.
Philosophy defines the Fallacy of Equivocation as seeking to use one sense of a word in circumstances where a different sense is appropriate or called for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG View Post
The Law of Biogensis states: if you want to know what type of being something is, you look at its parents, therefore two human parents can only create a human being.
No, the Law of Biogenesis states, and has always stated, that insofar as things are known, living things are not currently being produced from nonliving things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG View Post
If an unborn baby is a human being, she therefore is a person. This isn't religious dogma, it's factual and logical.
It's basically a work of abstract art painted by you. You might wish to title it "Circular Logic". The claim otherwise has no discernible foundation at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG View Post
You have yet to give me one good reason as to why an unborn baby is not a person!
This is your theory. The burden of proof is on the affirmative. You have not been able to pick up, much less carry, that burden.
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
194 posts, read 361,005 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Complex things need to be considered in their complexity, else one risks the signficant errors of over-simplification.


Philosophy defines the Fallacy of Equivocation as seeking to use one sense of a word in circumstances where a different sense is appropriate or called for.


No, the Law of Biogenesis states, and has always stated, that insofar as things are known, living things are not currently being produced from nonliving things.


It's basically a work of abstract art painted by you. You might wish to title it "Circular Logic". The claim otherwise has no discernible foundation at all.


This is your theory. The burden of proof is on the affirmative. You have not been able to pick up, much less carry, that burden.

"In the field of biology, one of the most commonly accepted and widely used laws of science is the law of biogenesis. This law was set forth many years ago to dictate what both theory and experimental evidence showed to be true among living organisms—that life comes only from preceding life, and perpetuates itself by reproducing only its own kind or type."

You simply don't care about the truth. Nice cop-out by the way!
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Wahiawa,Hi
110 posts, read 57,910 times
Reputation: 26
To you LUAnne I can offer an apology. However only to the extent of the extreme circumstances you relate which are in the minority of the 6,000,000 plus abortions of record. There is rarely anything totally black and white, I yield to that and did not mean to insult those that fall into that minority category.
That does not forgive the lunatic willy nilly attitude of the proponents of abortion. These people are as callous to human life as Nazis shoveling jews into the ovens. The individuals that disgust and insult the human race are the self proclaimed gods, pseudointellectual disciples of moral turpitude, defining with their pseudoscience and arrogance, the positions inherent in their bankrupt and empty positions, extrapolated from an intellectual vacuum, what constitutes life.
These are pathetic little junior college egomaniacs professing narcissic wisdom designed more to extoll their personal sense of erudition, at the expense of life over death itself, than to humbly admit their own idiotic lunacy. These people are typically people that are teaching your children.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:36 PM
 
365 posts, read 697,361 times
Reputation: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by WKUHilltopper View Post
To you LUAnne I can offer an apology. However only to the extent of the extreme circumstances you relate which are in the minority of the 6,000,000 plus abortions of record. There is rarely anything totally black and white, I yield to that and did not mean to insult those that fall into that minority category.
That does not forgive the lunatic willy nilly attitude of the proponents of abortion. These people are as callous to human life as Nazis shoveling jews into the ovens. The individuals that disgust and insult the human race are the self proclaimed gods, pseudointellectual disciples of moral turpitude, defining with their pseudoscience and arrogance, the positions inherent in their bankrupt and empty positions, extrapolated from an intellectual vacuum, what constitutes life.
These are pathetic little junior college egomaniacs professing narcissic wisdom designed more to extoll their personal sense of erudition, at the expense of life over death itself, than to humbly admit their own idiotic lunacy. These people are typically people that are teaching your children.
...its no problem, and apologies arent necessary, opinions arent fact, and if these people are teaching MY kids, I doubt they are listening, my kids are more like the Nazis, they act then listen, lol...when a child is invited to a life, it stands a better chance at having one too....
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:48 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,389,934 times
Reputation: 4013
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOG View Post
"In the field of biology, one of the most commonly accepted and widely used laws of science is the law of biogenesis. This law was set forth many years ago to dictate what both theory and experimental evidence showed to be true among living organisms—that life comes only from preceding life, and perpetuates itself by reproducing only its own kind or type."

You simply don't care about the truth. Nice cop-out by the way!
Well, I care about the truth enough not to go slinking off to a place like ApologeticsPress.org in the belief that I might find it. This is a creationist website. Not a very good source to be using if one is pretending not to be putting forward religious arguments...especially when there are any number of reputable sites that would have properly omitted everything after the last comma above.

Apologetics Press - The Bible and the Laws of Science: The Law of Biogenesis (broken link)

Dr. Bert Thompson, by the way is a young-earth creationist himself and was an adjunct professor of Bible and science studies at Southern Christian University (now Regions University) until the Spring of 2005, when he was removed due to allegations of sexual misconduct with young boys.

Here is the first sentence from the Mission Statement of Regions University...

Regions University is an independent, coeducational institution dedicated to the spirit of its Christian ideals and heritage.

You simply don't care about your sources.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:19 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,665 posts, read 25,522,436 times
Reputation: 24363
When you think about it, being pro-life just makes sense. Are you allowed to go down the street and murder that person who is just causing you a problem. No! You would be tried for first degree murder. I see no difference between that and doing away with a life that is an inconvenience to you. Yes, it is a woman's body, but that person she murders in first degree is another body. It should not be allowed in a civilized society.

I have heard people compare a fetus to a cancer, etc. There is one basic difference. A cancer will never leave the person it is growing in, it will eventually kill that person; but if left alone, a fetus will mature and leave the body it is growing in. It is therefore a person.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
194 posts, read 361,005 times
Reputation: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Well, I care about the truth enough not to go slinking off to a place like ApologeticsPress.org in the belief that I might find it. This is a creationist website. Not a very good source to be using if one is pretending not to be putting forward religious arguments...especially when there are any number of reputable sites that would have properly omitted everything after the last comma above.

Apologetics Press - The Bible and the Laws of Science: The Law of Biogenesis (broken link)

Dr. Bert Thompson, by the way is a young-earth creationist himself and was an adjunct professor of Bible and science studies at Southern Christian University (now Regions University) until the Spring of 2005, when he was removed due to allegations of sexual misconduct with young boys.

Here is the first sentence from the Mission Statement of Regions University...

Regions University is an independent, coeducational institution dedicated to the spirit of its Christian ideals and heritage.

You simply don't care about your sources.

There are two principle aspects of the Law of Biogenesis, one being that life comes from life; it does not come from non-life, and each being reproduces after its own kind. Is this logic so ridiculous and so outlandish or is it just plain common sense? Does anyone really need a scienticist to tell them that two human parents cannot create a dog or cat, but only a human baby? It's not that difficult to see or understand. Yes, for the first several weeks, it doesn't look like a human right away, but DNA on the other hand gives us unmistakeable evidence telling us what kind of being any living thing is. One looking at a row of 10 zygotes wouldn't know which was human by simply looking, but its DNA would tell us without a shadow of doubt which one was human.
It's also not difficult to see that at the moment of conception, something new has been created. A human father puts forth 23 chromosomes which unites with the mothers egg that contains 23 chromosomes, creating a zygote with--guess what--46 chromosomes. Not all the chromosomes of the mother, not all the chromosomes of the father, but a unique chromosomal match. In other words, at that point, by scientific assessment, we have a living thing that does not have the chromosomal makeup of either of his parents, but a combination of the two. In other words, it has its own unique chromosomal pattern of 46 chromosomes that are its own as a living being. That's how we know the zygote is not mom and is not dad. It is something different and it is alive, yes living in mom, sure enough, but a separate living entity. It is a living human being.
Please, I ask again, what would you label an unborn baby? What is it and when does it become a person in your eyes? And most importantly, what is the difference between a human being and a person?

Last edited by JOJOG; 02-06-2008 at 06:27 AM..
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Old 02-06-2008, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Land of Thought and Flow
8,323 posts, read 15,129,480 times
Reputation: 4957
Default Science trumps all...

The Law of Biogenesis, in short, says that life cannot be created from non-life. While this may have been true many years ago, it's becoming an obsolete "saying".

Every day new advances are going towards creating life from non-life.

Scientists create life from non-life (http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080125/NEWS03/783354448/-1/news - broken link)

These scientists have mimicked a bacterium - by usage of chemicals and knowledge. Minor, yes. But with the experiments and data, years from now, we could create much more.

Back to the topic of logic in abortion debates. The problem doesn't lie with a lack of logic - it is so dense in perceived logic from either side that it becomes a contest of whose logic is better.
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