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How come 99% pro-life and pro-choice people cannot make a logical or rational argument?
Every time I go on a forum and I see an abortion thread I cringe because I know I will be reading little more than slogans and logical fallacies. Occasionally there is one or two people who actually make sense, but nobody notices them or tries to rebut their arguments with slogans and logical fallacies.
Hey, I'm pro-choice and I believe that abortion should be legal. I believe the fetus for most of the duration of pregnancy (the very late stages of pregnancy are iffy) is an extension of the mother's body, thus she is allowed to do what she with the fetus. This allows both abortions and allows assaults resulting in miscarriages to be tried in the same intensity as if the victim was blinded or lost an arm.
However, I can understand the pro-life people as well, at least the ones who don't solely base their arguments on Bible verses. Truth be told, is that the issue is more complex than "person or not person"; a zygote becomes an embryo which becomes a fetus which develops and can potentially become a baby. During the very last stages of pregnancy, there is a very thin line between baby and fetus. There are legitimate ethical and philosophical questions about the morality of abortion and when it should or should not be allowed. I believe pro-life people are wrong (in the factually sense and in some very rare cases, morally) and mistaken, but not stupid or evil.
I also see a complete lack of logic. I see arguments like, "Oh, you think it is alright to execute a criminal, but abortions are wrong" or "Oh, liberals believe in murdering babies, but are opposed to capital punishment". These are both arguments I have seen on this forum (and many others and talk shows and blogs and magazine articles and so on). They completely leave out a major difference in opinion, one side believes a fetus is a baby and the other believes it is an unconscious potential baby. Also, bringing up capital punishment makes no sense, because one side doesn't consider a fetus to be a person, but doesn't believe the state should either debase itself or is competent enough to execute people, while the other side believes a fetus is a baby and sees a difference between an innocent baby and a (assuming) convicted murderer.
Also, both sides often agree with each other more than they think. Very few people are against abortion in all cases, many pro-life people support the option for rape, incest, or when the mother's life is threatened. There are different types of pro-life as well, the purely religious motivated, those who think that there are different levels of personhood (which usually have no problem with abortion in the early stages, but become increasingly opposed the closer to birth), and rarer groups which support bans on abortion because they want population growth. Also, a lot of pro-choice people support the option of abortion in every case. Many are opposed to late term abortions in all but the most extreme cases. The funny thing is the pro-life person who believes that a fetus becomes more human as time goes on and a pro-choice person who believes in some restrictions on late term abortion are closer to agreeing with each other than most people on their own respective sides.
I don't care what side you are on, just understand what the other side believes and what your opponent believes and work on that. Think that a fetus is a baby? Well, come up with facts and a reasoned argument why a fetus is a person. Science, philosophy, make a moral argument as to why abortion is wrong; anything other than "Life begins at conception" or talk of "baby killing". Show everyone when it becomes a baby and why it is a baby. Think that a fetus is just a fetus? Show your opponent evidence how a fetus is not a person. Make an argument about how since a fetus can only survive due to its mother's body, the mother should have the ultimate say on whether or not it can stay there. "My body, my choice" doesn't cut it. It is along the right lines, but bumper sticker debating is a waste of everyone's time.
Thank you.
Frank, hate to dispute your argument that a fetus is an extension of the mother's body,but a microscopic examination of its tissues would reveal 46 chromosomes, 23 from the mother and 23 from the father, a new entity unlike any other, when born has its own fingerprints, unlike any other set. So it is not an extension of the mother but a tenant in an untenable situation. The difference between the capital punishment and abortion argument is a simple one. The unborn baby did not commit a crime. But if you give the baby a trial with appeals all the way to the Supreme Court, your arguement will resonate more. I have never seen a Hallmark Card that said, "so you are going to have a fetus," or " Expectant Fetus Landlord! For gosh sakes, it is a baby and if you don't believe me, then watch the young lady in question, without any magic tricks change that "fetus" into a baby, if her car is hit on the way to the abortion clinic. The life of the mother and in cases of incest and rape, one might make the leap but the 50 or sixty million abortions sice Roe v. Wade. By the way, Roosevelt establshed Social Security based on the Economic Triangle theory. Lots of kids being born, future contributors to the Social Security fund. Now, with an aging population minus the fifty or sixty million contributors, the system is failing. That is because, we removed the live components from the equation.
Frank, hate to dispute your argument that a fetus is an extension of the mother's body,but a microscopic examination of its tissues would reveal 46 chromosomes, 23 from the mother and 23 from the father, a new entity unlike any other, when born has its own fingerprints, unlike any other set. So it is not an extension of the mother but a tenant in an untenable situation. The difference between the capital punishment and abortion argument is a simple one. The unborn baby did not commit a crime. But if you give the baby a trial with appeals all the way to the Supreme Court, your arguement will resonate more. I have never seen a Hallmark Card that said, "so you are going to have a fetus," or " Expectant Fetus Landlord! For gosh sakes, it is a baby and if you don't believe me, then watch the young lady in question, without any magic tricks change that "fetus" into a baby, if her car is hit on the way to the abortion clinic. The life of the mother and in cases of incest and rape, one might make the leap but the 50 or sixty million abortions sice Roe v. Wade. By the way, Roosevelt establshed Social Security based on the Economic Triangle theory. Lots of kids being born, future contributors to the Social Security fund. Now, with an aging population minus the fifty or sixty million contributors, the system is failing. That is because, we removed the live components from the equation.
Take a look at your children and family members. Do they look like parasites to you? Naturally, you have the right to choose abortion or life but let's not impersonalize what an unborn child is. I suppose you approve Obama looking at a baby as punishment as well. Let's see, parasite, fetus, punishment, certainly tells me a lot about changes in this country. I once asked an elderly lady who had a large number of children during the depression how she managed, since there were no welfare programs then......she replied. " We managed, another handful of food, a little bit of this and that and we managed. And that was during a time that birth control was not in our vocabularies. Today, young women and men have all sorts of products to limit their families or offspring. But, it appears, abortion is the easiest solution. Call it what you will, parasite, fetus, punishment, sci8ence is simply show and tell. If it grows, it is alive. It takes nine months for the answer to this scientific question to prove itself. But with ultra-sound, you can get the answer instantly. It is a baby! What you do with it is where the choice comes in.
Social Security is failing because the government removed any surplus from the system for decades.
There was little accountability for the funds.
Yes, I would agree there are many reasons that Social Security is failing. One of them is that the fifty or sixty million future contrinutors never got a chance to contribute. And the word parasites comes to mind. There are many people on Social Security and Social Security Supplemental Income who should not be collecting. It was supposed to be a pension of sorts. Now as many of you have noted, it has become a slush fund for new ideas for re-election of Washington insiders.
Please, believe what you want, but your use of emotional, charged words is simply silly.
His words are no sillier than yours are -
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Isn't abortion already legal in the States? Or don't the insurance companies cover abortions?
