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Because he's a Wesleyan! That's important to the context of events. Dear Lord, even if you weren't raised Methodist, aren't any of you capable of doing a quick Google search on John Wesley and skimming the results? My mind boggles at the profound ignorance demonstrated in this thread.
Actually I skimmed it, and there was a TON about him. I mean a ton, that isn't relevant to this discussion. Its entirely possible others did not see what you expected when they skimmed it. Nothing I saw in the skimming talked about guilt, but I wasnt looking for it, I was just curious.
He's one of those people who I refer to as "True believers". For whom I have a immense amount of respect. They walk the talk. And they're just out and out good people. He talked about the importance of being free of willful sin? (I skimmed it, I dont have it open). That didn't strike me as guilt based, but rather what people who truly believe in god should do. Yes I know, they often dont, but this guy....like I said. True believer, walked the talk.
I'm talking about the hypocrisy in Piper's own actions. If the sermons are pre-planned guilt trips (a little too Brady Bunch for me but whatever) you can't turn around and admonish a parishioner for not getting the message via sermon then proceed to use an "open letter" (aka social media rant - the height of narcissism/self-actualization) to try to do the trick.
Personally, I think life experience and just talking with others can build these skills but the passive-aggressive mindset is an exhausting no-win situation.
There was absolutely nothing hypocritical about his response in the context of either Wesleyan, or more broadly, Christian tradition. Open a bible and read the epistles. They are incredibly blunt; sometimes even offensive. More importantly, they were read publicly. I don't know where you get this idea that social niceties are required of Christians. Could Piper have handled it differently? Of course, and that might even have been best, but he had no such duty to do so, at least within the bounds of his faith. While most of the time private admonishment is preferable, sometimes a public dressing down is necessary to get the point across. Clearly Piper thought that was the case in this situation, and I can't say I disagree given the current mood on college campuses across the nation.
Last edited by randomparent; 12-01-2015 at 12:09 PM..
This past week, I actually had a student come forward after a university chapel service and complain because he felt “victimized” by a sermon on the topic of 1 Corinthians 13. It appears that this young scholar felt offended because a homily on love made him feel bad for not showing love. In his mind, the speaker was wrong for making him, and his peers, feel uncomfortable.
An open letter to the students written by -- Dr. Everett Piper, President where he said...
Our culture has actually taught our kids to be this self-absorbed and narcissistic. Any time their feelings are hurt, they are the victims. Anyone who dares challenge them and, thus, makes them “feel bad” about themselves, is a “hater,” a “bigot,” an “oppressor,” and a “victimizer.”
Actually I skimmed it, and there was a TON about him. I mean a ton, that isn't relevant to this discussion. Its entirely possible others did not see what you expected when they skimmed it. Nothing I saw in the skimming talked about guilt, but I wasnt looking for it, I was just curious.
He's one of those people who I refer to as "True believers". For whom I have a immense amount of respect. They walk the talk. And they're just out and out good people. He talked about the importance of being free of willful sin? (I skimmed it, I dont have it open). That didn't strike me as guilt based, but rather what people who truly believe in god should do. Yes I know, they often dont, but this guy....like I said. True believer, walked the talk.
Look up Sanctification on Wikipedia and skim to the brief section on Methodists. Another source of information that expresses the Wesleyan call to practical divinity can be found here at the website of the United Methodist Church. The most enlightening bit can be found under the subtitle Sanctification.
Note: I was raised Methodist but was baptized in the Lutheran church as an adult. They are complete opposites when it comes to sanctification. I am for the most part no longer a practicing Christian, considering myself Agnostic with an appreciation for the Christian tradition and its practices.
Last edited by randomparent; 12-01-2015 at 12:54 PM..
BTW, for those who are not aware, the subject of the sermon was 1 Corinthians 13. That's the "Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy...." scripture.
There was absolutely nothing hypocritical about his response in the context of either Wesleyan, or more broadly, Christian tradition. Open a bible and read the epistles. They are incredibly blunt; sometimes even offensive. More importantly, they were read publicly. I don't know where you get this idea that social niceties are required of Christians. Could Piper have handled it differently? Of course, and that might even have been best, but he had no such duty to do so, at least within the bounds of his faith. While most of the time private admonishment is preferable, sometimes a public dressing down is necessary to get the point across. Clearly Piper thought that was the case in this situation, and I can't say I disagree given the current mood on college campuses across the nation.
I guess it's just a matter of life outlook. I'm my own man and don't defer to an ideology as some sort of moral baseline outline for others to check against. If you have a question about me or what I believe you can get it from the horse's mouth. This eliminates the passive-aggressive game often found in all hardcore religious folks.
But Piper does use an ideology and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks.
I contend it's hypocritical to subscribe to the package but break the rules. And that's exactly what Piper did in his rant. If sermons are guilt trips and supposed to inspire confessions and not self-actualization then admonishing a parishioner for not using the sermon as intended is hypocritical because it's the job of the sermon itself to induce the guilt trip.
Not an open letter. Not a tweet. Not an email.
I would be very interested to hear what Piper's response was in real time when confronted by the student. That part of the story is curiously missing from this fable.
My guess is Piper put on his megalomaniac hat and guilted the kid into not minding scripture/faith tenets during the exchange.
I'll admit my own religious background is Catholicism which has a stranglehold on doctrine being specific and not very flexible. It's the pinnacle of passive-aggressive guilt trips as a means to "educate" as well as church "leaders" using them to hide behind.
This guy needs to be fired. Not because of what he said but because he is just another two-bit stereotyping bigot - this time against kids. He is so full of it that he does not acknowledge that 99% of the students in his school would feel the same way about the complaint as he does. He just goes off on everyone lumping them all together and generalizing the behavior of one or two individuals to the entire community (wow, where have we heard that). Lose the loser.
I guess it's just a matter of life outlook. I'm my own man and don't defer to an ideology as some sort of moral baseline outline for others to check against. If you have a question about me or what I believe you can get it from the horse's mouth. This eliminates the passive-aggressive game often found in all hardcore religious folks.
But Piper does use an ideology and that's fine. Different strokes for different folks.
I contend it's hypocritical to subscribe to the package but break the rules. And that's exactly what Piper did in his rant. If sermons are guilt trips and supposed to inspire confessions and not self-actualization then admonishing a parishioner for not using the sermon as intended is hypocritical because it's the job of the sermon itself to induce the guilt trip.
Not an open letter. Not a tweet. Not an email.
I would be very interested to hear what Piper's response was in real time when confronted by the student. That part of the story is curiously missing from this fable.
My guess is Piper put on his megalomaniac hat and guilted the kid into not minding scripture/faith tenets during the exchange.
I'll admit my own religious background is Catholicism which has a stranglehold on doctrine being specific and not very flexible. It's the pinnacle of passive-aggressive guilt trips as a means to "educate" as well as church "leaders" using them to hide behind.
More on this story can be found here at the OKWU website.
I want to be clear that I have no connection to OKWU or any other Wesleyan university, but I was raised Methodist through adolescence. I attended a Unitarian Universalist fellowship through college, and as a young parent, I was baptized Lutheran. I have drifted away from faith in middle age for a variety of reasons. This does not mean that I reject Christianity entirely.
Much of what I have read from Dr. Piper disturbs me, but I thought his response to this young man and, by extension, the student body, was completely appropriate. OKWU is not a secular university. It is a tiny Christian school founded on the distinctive tenets and mission of Wesleyanism. If a student cannot handle a sermon on 1 Corinthians 13 and the centrality of love for God and one's neighbor to sanctification, then he needs to pack up and seek his degree elsewhere. It is what it is.
Last edited by randomparent; 12-01-2015 at 03:50 PM..
More on this story can be found here at the OKWU website.
I want to be clear that I have no connection to OKWU or any other Wesleyan university, but I was raised Methodist through adolescence. I attended a Unitarian Universalist fellowship through college, and as a young parent, I was baptized Lutheran. I have drifted away from faith in middle age for a variety of reasons. This does not mean that I reject Christianity entirely.
Much of what I have read from Dr. Piper disturbs me, but I thought his response to this young man and, by extension, the student body, was completely appropriate. OKWU is not a secular university. It is a tiny Christian school founded on the distinctive tenets and mission of Wesleyanism. If a student cannot handle a sermon on 1 Corinthians 13 and the centrality of love for God and one's neighbor to sanctification, then he needs to pack up and seek his degree elsewhere. It is what it is.
I appreciate your perspective on this matter. I respect your opinion.
I just feel (again...raised Catholic so keep the stereotype in mind) that doctrine and rigid conformity are not only a barrier to growth (spiritual, intellectual) for young people but often a means of promoting a self-serving interest for those in a position of power.
And I'm not opposed to what he's saying in a general or societal sense. But this was a situation where we basically had a teacher (ok president but a power position) failed to use a student's issue to that student's advantage.
It just seems to me that instead of writing a diatribe about the overall/general moral to this story in an abstract sense for a wide audience it would have been nice for him to focus the kid on where he went astray. Whether he uses compassion or a butt kicking to get that point across is not my concern. I'd like to know what he said to the kid and more importantly how he reacted.
It seems to me hypocrisy and megalomania stood in Piper's way of relaying that story.
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