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What law created isn't subjective? It's a cop out to claim otherwise. Please name a law that has had no attachment of feeling involved in its writing or approval process.
The request isn't any more relevant than the feelings are. There is an established constitutional right to privacy from which virtually the entire concept of ordered liberty arises. A woman's right to guide her own reproductive history has been repeatedly established to lie within that right of marital, medical, and individual privacy. It doesn't matter how you or anyone else either feels or felt about it.
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Originally Posted by twojciac
If birth starts it, why in some states does a double murder charge stand when someone kills a pregnant woman? Why are fetuses given rights of inheritence? Does a person who is born deserve all Constitutional protections?
While I haven't read every so-called fetal-murder statute in the country, I think you will find that in addition to the exclusion of abortion contained in all, at least many such laws are conditioned on the woman's expressed or demonstrated intent and willingness to sustain the continued physical and emotional burdens of pregnancy. Despite what spinmeisters in dishonest right-to-life media might say, these laws remain then, as did others before them, much more within the domain of the woman's personal and property rights than within any set of rights that is accorded to the fetus itself.
Similarly with fetal inheritance, which is in fact an ancient tradition. The provision has nothing at all to do with the fetus itself, but rather with the law's intent to carry out as fully as possible the wishes of the testator. Upon the testator's instruction, fetuses conceived during the lifetime of the decedant may in essence be carried as provisional beneficiaries-in-waiting. If ultimately born alive, it is at that point that their own rights and status are recognized and that they become eligible to stand as equals with heirs already born at the time of the decedant's death.
Whether any deserves it or not, merely being born does not confer a full set of constitutional rights on anyone and never has. The continuing state of dependency attached to infants and children precludes their having an unfettered claim to all of their eventual rights. The rights not attached are of course reserved to the parents or other legal guardians acting on behalf of the infant or child. Such rights tend to attach to the child at various points in the process of its maturation and eventual attainment of full majority.
The discussion is not about older children... as I said, if women start giving birth to a 10 year old child, then we can have that discussion. Otherwise, start a new thread.
Since women give birth to infants, and there are people waiting for infants, there is a demonstrated demand for the infants that would result if abortions were ceased.
Precisely my point--which infants?
The perfect little white babies as I stated previously. Yet healthy white women are not the only women having abortions.
What about the handicapped babies? What about the crack addicted babies? What about the ethnically mixed babies? I doubt all of these eager to adopt couples would be rushing out to adopt those children that don't measure up to their idea of the "perfect little newborn."
Statistics suggest that many of those unwanted older children that are passed over in favor of the infants were likely the newborns who weren't aborted...sure worked out well for them, didn't it?
The perfect little white babies as I stated previously. Yet healthy white women are not the only women having abortions.
What about the handicapped babies? What about the crack addicted babies? What about the ethnically mixed babies? I doubt all of these eager to adopt couples would be rushing out to adopt those children that don't measure up to their idea of the "perfect little newborn."
Statistics suggest that many of those unwanted older children that are passed over in favor of the infants were likely the newborns who weren't aborted...sure worked out well for them, didn't it?
Why is it then that my sister is still waiting for a child? She's not looking for a white baby, or one that isn't handicapped. She's already been a foster mother for a black infant, and for an 18 month old white baby with birth defects... but both are temporary while the relatives petition the court for custody.
There's more of a demand for healthy white infants, but out of the people who I know who have adopted, or are looking to adopt, none have cared and all face or have faced a very long wait.
A difference here being that these are all actual registered groups and organizations with sizable memberships, not one guy with a ten-page, hand-coded website that hasn't been updated in 13 months.
The discussion is not about older children... as I said, if women start giving birth to a 10 year old child, then we can have that discussion. Otherwise, start a new thread.
I think <kele>'s points were rather well made. The discussion does become about potential adoptees of all ages as soon as the great backlog of people wanting to adopt is introduced in the face of a quite substantial group of children of all ages who are desirous and in need of being adopted. It is one thing to want to adopt...it is another to want to adopt only from a select class.
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Originally Posted by twojciac
Since women give birth to infants, and there are people waiting for infants, there is a demonstrated demand for the infants that would result if abortions were ceased.
Black women are about five times more likely to have abortions than white women. Hispanic women are about three times more likely. I'm not sure that the shelves would really be cleared if we suddenly carried 1.2 million extra unwanted pregnancies per year to term and then put the issue of all those up for grabs.
I'm also not sure how to describe the morals and ethics of people who, wanting to adopt, would expect that a woman not wanting to be pregnant should remain so anyway merely on their behalf. Like many ideas from the pro-life side, this is sounding a lot like a plan for compulsory childbirth...
I think <kele>'s points were rather well made. The discussion does become about potential adoptees of all ages as soon as the great backlog of people wanting to adopt is introduced in the face of a quite substantial group of children of all ages who are desirous and in need of being adopted. It is one thing to want to adopt...it is another to want to adopt only from a select class.
Of course you agree, it suits your purpose. I never said there weren't a large number of 4+ year olds waiting to be adopted, but not many of them are up for adoption because their mother decided not have an abortion... they've been taken away by CPS.
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Black women are about five times more likely to have abortions than white women. Hispanic women are about three times more likely. I'm not sure that the shelves would really be cleared if we suddenly carried 1.2 million extra unwanted pregnancies per year to term and then put the issue of all those up for grabs.
Nor am I sure... but the issue isn't if life is precious enough to preserve only for the first 50,000. You also neglect to factor in a possible reduction in pregnancies because people won't be able to easilly use abortion as a form of birth control.
No one has the answers, it's not a simple subject. But there aren't a ton of babies available for adoption like you want to lead everyone to believe. Instead of acknowledging this, you and others try to divert the topic to older children.
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I'm also not sure how to describe the morals and ethics of people who, wanting to adopt, would expect that a woman not wanting to be pregnant should remain so anyway merely on their behalf. Like many ideas from the pro-life side, this is sounding a lot like a plan for compulsory childbirth...
Merely on their behalf? This whole scenario has been setup to make pro life people to be hypocrits... and then you have the nerve to suggest that we're attempting to make childbirth compulsory? That's outrageous.
Then we've got people trying to suggest that as a pro life person that I hate gays. Who here is grasping at straws?
Neither the state nor the federal legislature may enact laws that abridge a person's constitutional rights. You may as well claim that the right of free speech or of a free press should be left up to the states to decide...
So, at what exact point do you feel the fetus or baby receives it's own constitutional rights?
I would say at about 1,860 weeks gestation, since that is the age at which a fetus could finally exercise his or her constitutional right to serve as President of the United States.
I would say at about 1,860 weeks gestation, since that is the age at which a fetus could finally exercise his or her constitutional right to serve as President of the United States.
Nice evasion tactic, but inaccurate. Noone has the "right" to serve as POTUS.
That was the statistic that was given to me at the time. I tried to google the topic to see if I could find info on how many couples currently want to adopt infants (just to compare and get a ballpark figure) but I couldn't come up with anything on that specific subject. What I do know for sure, as twojciac pointed out, is that many, many couples want to adopt infants and are unable to or if they do, face sometimes years of waiting. Again, that's why so many turn to foreign adoption or sometimes "advertising for birth mothers."
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