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Old 01-29-2016, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,687 posts, read 6,702,186 times
Reputation: 6593

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Thomas View Post
Of course but not that much historically.

Today it's so massive
I think it's fair to say that government during the Industrial Revolution, especially before Teddy Roosevelt, was vastly more corrupt that government it today.

And I'm not saying that corruption isn't a bad thing or that it isn't getting any worse. It is and it is. All I'm pointing out is that historically, the USA has seen worse.

History tells us that what we require is an incorruptible hero to save the day and a massive grass roots movement that is outraged and demanding change. Teddy Roosevelt was that guy for that day. The Progressive Party was that movement for the day (no relation to today's Progressives btw), and Roosevelt channeled that movement to bring about change. Things tend to change in America when enough people stand up and demand change. It certainly helps to have an extremely charismatic leader around as well. I'm all for it!
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,050 posts, read 502,963 times
Reputation: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
Corruption is par for the course in DC for both parties. The scary part is the democrats openly vote for a know corrupt politician in Hillary Clinton. At least the republicans have the common decency of lying about how corrupt they are.
Awe come on. It's equally true of both parties. Ever hear of "Nixon"? How about Flint Michigan and the appointed "emergency manager"?

But if we want to talk about corruption as a destructive agent of democracy and a perversion of our traditional and constitutional government, we can think about the insanity of Citizens United, and notion that money is speech(!!!), and the very existence of A.L.E.C., an organization of politicians and top corporate executives with the purpose of politicians receiving the prepared legislation developed by corporate lawyers to serve corporate goals, many of which chip away at the rights and freedoms of the people, not to mention that it is a direct conflict with the notion of government of the people, by the people, and for the people, i.e. democracy.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,050 posts, read 502,963 times
Reputation: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I think it's fair to say that government during the Industrial Revolution, especially before Teddy Roosevelt, was vastly more corrupt that government it today.

And I'm not saying that corruption isn't a bad thing or that it isn't getting any worse. It is and it is. All I'm pointing out is that historically, the USA has seen worse.

History tells us that what we require is an incorruptible hero to save the day and a massive grass roots movement that is outraged and demanding change. Teddy Roosevelt was that guy for that day. The Progressive Party was that movement for the day (no relation to today's Progressives btw), and Roosevelt channeled that movement to bring about change. Things tend to change in America when enough people stand up and demand change. It certainly helps to have an extremely charismatic leader around as well. I'm all for it!
Well, Bernie Sanders is the only one calling for such a mass movement, and he is creating it. Other politicians seem to be afraid to allow the people to discover their power when they organize.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:47 PM
 
4,412 posts, read 3,946,769 times
Reputation: 2325
As a whole Government is the US is far less corrupt than it used to be. Extortion and bribery of bureaucrats is largely nonexistent. What we have done is created legalization of corruption at the very top. Bribes are just now now Constitutionally protected speech in the form of "campaign financing."
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:57 PM
 
Location: St Paul
7,713 posts, read 4,726,225 times
Reputation: 5007
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Thomas View Post
It's so far past the point of no return they're not even bothering hiding it.

Back in the day if current events were happening at least they would resign.

Today they're not even taking the blame.

Just accusing someone else.

And i'm not even talking about crony capitalism.

What happened??

When did it go wrong??

Such massive and systemic corruption

I think US has never been so corrupt

Yet here we are
It's always been corrupt just that today people now accept it as normal, as their right almost, just so long as it's "their" party doing it, then they will actually defend it.
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Old 01-29-2016, 03:02 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,788,700 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kode View Post
Awe come on. It's equally true of both parties. Ever hear of "Nixon"? How about Flint Michigan and the appointed "emergency manager"?

But if we want to talk about corruption as a destructive agent of democracy and a perversion of our traditional and constitutional government, we can think about the insanity of Citizens United, and notion that money is speech(!!!), and the very existence of A.L.E.C., an organization of politicians and top corporate executives with the purpose of politicians receiving the prepared legislation developed by corporate lawyers to serve corporate goals, many of which chip away at the rights and freedoms of the people, not to mention that it is a direct conflict with the notion of government of the people, by the people, and for the people, i.e. democracy.
You don't understand citizen United. It isn't about money, it is about people maintaining their rights as a group. You don't lose your right to free speech when you decide you want to pool your money together with another person of like mind.

Obama has done similar things as Nixon and no one seems to bat an eye. Obama was spying on members of congress during the Iran investigation and people could hardly care.
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Old 01-29-2016, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,050 posts, read 502,963 times
Reputation: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
You don't understand citizen United. It isn't about money, it is about people maintaining their rights as a group. You don't lose your right to free speech when you decide you want to pool your money together with another person of like mind.
Oh, I understand C.U. just fine. It is about political power via money. It is an effort to allow billionaire corporatists to buy elections. It says that a person with that much money has a right to more "free speech" than I do since I can't buy as much. So no, I don't lose my right to free speech, -I just lose the equality of that right as compared to others. You know as well as I do that it gives the billionaire class the ability to spread far more political propaganda than I can or than the public will. And your defense of such a reduction in fair democracy is appalling. You give it up so easily. And doing so is very much against your own best interests!!
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Old 01-29-2016, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
29,691 posts, read 24,753,174 times
Reputation: 28376
There has always been corruption. Just a matter of how much, and how much the people are willing to tolerate.

I complain about it. My dad complained about it. His dad complained about it. Doubt it will change.
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:09 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,788,700 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kode View Post
Oh, I understand C.U. just fine. It is about political power via money. It is an effort to allow billionaire corporatists to buy elections. It says that a person with that much money has a right to more "free speech" than I do since I can't buy as much. So no, I don't lose my right to free speech, -I just lose the equality of that right as compared to others. You know as well as I do that it gives the billionaire class the ability to spread far more political propaganda than I can or than the public will. And your defense of such a reduction in fair democracy is appalling. You give it up so easily. And doing so is very much against your own best interests!!
That is not what CU decided. The amount of money you have has no bearing on your civil rights and free speech, as it should be.


CU has notably favored democrats where unions are outspending corporations 2 to 1, yet is still support the decision. Look at the spending that has come from it, the majority going to democrat campaigns.
http://m.watchdog.org/?url=http%3A%2...referrer=#2818
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Native of Any Beach/FL
35,487 posts, read 20,841,123 times
Reputation: 14170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon18 View Post
Alas, America is not the country I grew up learning about in history books. It is no longer the "land of the free" because our privacy is invaded, and we are considered guilty until proven innocent. It is no longer the "home of the brave" because the media feeds us propaganda that keeps us fearful and suspicious. It is not the hero of the world; politicians drone-strike civilians in third-world countries and send courageous young men and women to die in unnecessary (but profitable) wars, without knowing the true horrors of war. The poor work harder and longer, but the rich get richer. The children of the poor remain poor because they don't have the same opportunities rich children do. We are taught to be selfish and materialistic, so that corporations can screw people over even more. Healthcare isn't even considered a basic human right!

The problem is that while Americans are generally good, kind-hearted people, we've also become apathetic; we put up with all of this ridiculousness without doing anything (I myself have only recently started paying attention). It's this apathy (and blind patriotism as well) that has gotten us into trouble, and now it might be too late to do anything about it.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone. I don't mean this as a personal attack against other Americans; I'm just expressing my thoughts about the system.
First-we only knew what a few told us- not even our history books are true
2- people were terrified of the blacks -remember the Russians? we practiced BOMB drills
When the Japanese came-- fear and more fear- the Cubans and so forth we have always been afraid always--
you must really put on thinking cap-- forget the mafia ? machine gun massacres?- Watergate?
''PLEASE" stop! same people different fears
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