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Old 02-11-2016, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
11,631 posts, read 5,434,047 times
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Quote:
Are we significantly better off than EU??
Any answer you get is going to be subjective. Consider that Western Europeans aren't immigrating to the USA in droves ... but Americans aren't immigrating to the EU in droves either. Everybody is pretty happy stay right where they are.

Now if you asked whether the USA or the EU is better off than Bangladesh or Somalia, then the answer is pretty obvious.
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Old 02-11-2016, 05:37 PM
 
1,772 posts, read 1,565,137 times
Reputation: 1144
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Any answer you get is going to be subjective. Consider that Western Europeans aren't immigrating to the USA in droves ... but Americans aren't immigrating to the EU in droves either. Everybody is pretty happy stay right where they are.

Now if you asked whether the USA or the EU is better off than Bangladesh or Somalia, then the answer is pretty obvious.

I must agree with that, and add that one of the most "European" societies and systems is right north of the US border, in Canada. Yet only about 26,000 Americans (out of a total population of 320 million) choose to immigrate each year to Canada. And roughly 26,000 Canadians (out of 35 million) choose to immigrate each year to the US.
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Old 02-11-2016, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,543 posts, read 11,289,567 times
Reputation: 12341
America has always had an advantage, though most Americans are indoctrinated to not know it.
It's called the republican form of government - no connection with the Republican party nor synonymous with "republic."

Under the republican form of government, where the people directly exercise sovereignty :
  • People have rights and powers, endowed by their Creator.
  • Citizens have privileges and immunities, granted by government.
  • Government serves the people, but rules the citizens.
- - -
Under the (socialist and) democratic forms of government: There are no sovereign people - only subjects.

Based on the observation that factions and socialists and usurers will corrupt any exercise of the democratic form of government, one must consider the option of withdrawal from the democratic form and the consequences of that act.

Once a sizable proportion of Americans restore their status as American nationals / free inhabitants / sovereign people, and no longer are exercising revenue taxable activities, we can extrapolate the following:

[] Local, state and federal tax revenues will diminish greatly.
[] Delegation of power to the local, state and federal governments will diminish greatly.
[] Institutions and bureaucracy will be impacted by the reduction in funding.
[] Recipients of public monies will be severely impacted by the cessation of funding.
[] Productive people will have significantly more remuneration available for spending, which may spur the private sector economy to grow and expand along lines that the private sector wishes.

Ergo, the potential for prosperity is astounding.

For more info:
Natural Rights and the Republican Form
//www.city-data.com/forum/42233024-post13.html

AMERICAN SOVEREIGNS (thread)
//www.city-data.com/forum/polit...overeigns.html
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Old 02-12-2016, 03:08 AM
 
1,373 posts, read 922,607 times
Reputation: 1045
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
America has always had an advantage, though most Americans are indoctrinated to not know it.
It's called the republican form of government - no connection with the Republican party nor synonymous with "republic."

Under the republican form of government, where the people directly exercise sovereignty :
  • People have rights and powers, endowed by their Creator.
  • Citizens have privileges and immunities, granted by government.
  • Government serves the people, but rules the citizens.
- - -
Under the (socialist and) democratic forms of government: There are no sovereign people - only subjects.

Based on the observation that factions and socialists and usurers will corrupt any exercise of the democratic form of government, one must consider the option of withdrawal from the democratic form and the consequences of that act.

Once a sizable proportion of Americans restore their status as American nationals / free inhabitants / sovereign people, and no longer are exercising revenue taxable activities, we can extrapolate the following:

[] Local, state and federal tax revenues will diminish greatly.
[] Delegation of power to the local, state and federal governments will diminish greatly.
[] Institutions and bureaucracy will be impacted by the reduction in funding.
[] Recipients of public monies will be severely impacted by the cessation of funding.
[] Productive people will have significantly more remuneration available for spending, which may spur the private sector economy to grow and expand along lines that the private sector wishes.

Ergo, the potential for prosperity is astounding.

For more info:
Natural Rights and the Republican Form
//www.city-data.com/forum/42233024-post13.html

AMERICAN SOVEREIGNS (thread)
//www.city-data.com/forum/polit...overeigns.html

Your construed differentiation between a republican vs. a democratic form of government seems outlandish to me. Or maybe you just use incongruous terms. Is the Federal Republic of Germany not a Republic? Is Germany a monarchy? Germany is like most other European countries a parliamentary republic. The U.S. is a presidential democracy. I guess you mean that the U.S. has in some fields more elements of a direct democracy. Whereas most other countries have more elements of a representative democracy? There are some differences, but they are negligible.

Quote:
  • People have rights and powers, endowed by their Creator.
  • Citizens have privileges and immunities, granted by government.
  • Government serves the people, but rules the citizens.
That's the case for all modern Western-style democracies. But I don't have the impression that the U.S. government serves the people so well.

Quote:
Under the (socialist and) democratic forms of government: There are no sovereign people - only subjects.
That's absurd. And there is no such thing like a socialist democratic form of government.
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Old 02-12-2016, 03:16 AM
 
76,080 posts, read 35,914,625 times
Reputation: 10876
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashes1 View Post
EU has a stronger safety net, so folks looking for social welfare are better off there
The EU has no FATCA laws, so the wealthy are better off there. Example: IKEA founder Ingvar Kamprad. He hid profitable assets, legally, in foreign accounts.

The "who's who" of European Tax Havens
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Old 02-12-2016, 02:44 PM
 
12,213 posts, read 12,102,003 times
Reputation: 10238
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Thomas View Post
What do you think??

We have roughly the same size in terms of GDP.

But smaller population.

GDP per capita is better.

Vast land, natural resources, cheaper and better housing, stable borders, lower taxes...etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...European_Union

Of course things are going downhill recently but so is in EU.

But let's not forget in the last century they've been through two world wars.
Short answer -- no, not really. If you're not a multi millionaire, chances are your quality of life is higher in the EU. That said, it's not exactly shangri la over here either. It's a lot more similar to the US than many think .. it's just the US without a disenfranchised, underprivileged and exploited underclass and all the nastiness that comes with that. Imagine a place where Billy Bob and Thug B Bangin' can both get by and enjoy a more or less middle class lifestyle if they're willing to work. Welcome to the EU. Less crime. Less ignorance. More buy in to civilization and civilized behavior. It's basically the US circa 1950 with more modern liberal values when it comes to civil liberties.
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Old 02-12-2016, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,543 posts, read 11,289,567 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukas1973 View Post
Your construed differentiation between a republican vs. a democratic form of government seems outlandish to me. Or maybe you just use incongruous terms.
Is the Federal Republic of Germany not a Republic? Is Germany a monarchy? Germany is like most other European countries a parliamentary republic.
The U.S. is a presidential democracy. [NO]
I guess you mean that the U.S. has in some fields more elements of a direct democracy. Whereas most other countries have more elements of a representative democracy? There are some differences, but they are negligible.

That's the case for all modern Western-style democracies. But I don't have the impression that the U.S. government serves the people so well.
I understand your dilemma. Most Americans do not understand the difference, either.

In soundbite format:
  • REPUBLIC = form of government, whose administration is open to all citizens (i.e., indirect democracy) -OR- can mean the government regardless of its form. (Ex: People's Republic of China).
  • DEMOCRACY = form of government where the whole body of citizens indirectly exercise sovereignty via majority vote. Minority rights can be overridden by majority, unless expressly protected.
  • REPUBLICAN FORM = form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereigns, endowed with rights that servant government is instituted to secure. Governments instituted to secure rights can only govern those who consent.

What is the MAJOR difference?

Citizens are subjects, by definition, owing mandatory civic duties to their sovereign governments, whether parliamentary democracy, monarchy, oligarchy, or whatever.

Sovereigns are not citizens, nor subjects, nor owe duties to the government (and its subject citizens).

Most Americans are taught to believe they are "born citizens," pursuant to the 14th amendment. But that cannot be true and comply with existing law. Suffice to say, no infant can give consent to be governed, and thus cannot be born into servitude (a violation of the republican form, the Declaration of Independence, and the 13th amendment).

America is UNIQUE, in that it is the ONLY COUNTRY with a republican form (not to be confused with "republic"). Americans are sovereigns until they consent otherwise. That is why Americans do not bow nor kneel to foreign monarchs (their social equals), and why Americans can marry foreign royalty and not violate local laws forbidding "commoners." And why Americans cannot accept foreign titles of nobility and thus descend to subjects of the foreign sovereign. Americans are sovereigns without subjects, unlike any other peoples on Earth.


REPUBLICAN FORM IN DEPTH
“The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the Rights of mankind.”
- - - Thomas Jefferson
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

“I firmly believe that the benevolent Creator designed the republican Form of Government for Man.”
- - - Samuel Adams;
Statement of (14 April 1785), quoted in The Writings of Samuel Adams (1904) edited by Harry A. Cushing
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Samuel_Adams

"What I do say is that no man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle, the sheet-anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- - - Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Peoria, Illinois (1854)
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abraham_lincoln
As Lincoln reminds us, under the republican form, promised by the USCON, instituted by the Declaration of Independence, NO MAN (nor American government) is good enough to govern you without your consent. Without your consent, all that government is authorized to do is secure endowed (sacred) rights (prosecute trespass; adjudicate disputes; defend against enemies, foreign or domestic).

All endowed rights and liberties are from the Creator, not government, and thus cannot be subject to a majority vote, or any other infringement.
" Personal liberty, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or natural Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as sacred as the Right to private property...and is regarded as inalienable."
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum, Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987.

NATURAL RIGHTS - ... are the rights of life, liberty, privacy, and good reputation.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 1324
Americans are endowed with [sacred] natural rights and liberties (natural and personal) that are not subject to infringement by servant government, instituted to secure those rights.

- - -
“... at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects, and have none to govern but themselves. . .
“... In Europe, the sovereignty is generally ascribed to the Prince; here, it rests with the people; there, the sovereign actually administers the government; here, never in a single instance; our Governors are the agents of the people, and, at most, stand in the same relation to their sovereign in which regents in Europe stand to their sovereigns.”
- - - Justice John Jay, Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. 2 Dall. 419 419 (1793)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremec...CR_0002_0419_Z

In America, however, the case is widely different. Our government is founded upon compact. Sovereignty was, and is, in the people.
- - - Glass vs The Sloop Betsey, 3 Dall 6 (1794)
- - -
In the republican form of government, the people are sovereigns (unless they consent otherwise) served by (not ruled by) servant government. Their rights and liberties existed before constitutional government (which is why the republican form is NOT a constitutional republic, nor can any constitutional government "grant" sovereignty). The servant government is organized as an indirect democracy, but it is an agent for the sovereign people, not their governor. Private people (sovereigns) are not party to the compact that created the servant government, nor serve it.

DEFINITIONS

Here are THREE definitions that describe aspects associated with the REPUBLICAN FORM
...
COMMONWEALTH - ...It generally designates, when so employed, a republican form of government, - one in which the welfare and rights of the entire mass of people are the main consideration, rather than the privileges of a class or the will of the monarch...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 278

SUBJECT - One that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws.
...Men in free governments are subjects as well as citizens; as citizens they enjoy rights and franchises; as subjects they are bound to obey the laws. The term is little used, in this sense, in countries enjoying a republican form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1425

GOVERNMENT (Republican Form of Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people... directly...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695
...
Restating, in the references to a “republican form” we can see the following characteristics of it:
[] People directly exercise sovereignty (over themselves and their private property, absolutely owned)
[] People are not subjects of a sovereign (citizens are subjects, by definition)
[] The welfare and rights of the entire mass of people are the main consideration
RELATED TO SOVEREIGN PEOPLE (non-citizen Nationals)
"The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different states in this union, the free inhabitants of each of these states, ... shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several states ..."
[Article IV of the Articles of Confederation (1777)]
“Free inhabitants” = sovereigns
“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion. . .”
- - - United States Constitution, Article 4, Section 4.

“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the PEOPLE.”
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the PEOPLE.”
- - - Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution
The "United States" government is NOT a republican form, but it guarantees it to the sovereign people in the States united.
Note: PEOPLE (sovereigns) have rights and powers. Citizens (subjects) have privileges and immunities.

Citizens are NOT sovereigns
CITIZEN - ... Citizens are members of a political community who, in their associative capacity, have established or SUBMITTED themselves to the dominion of government for the promotion of the general welfare and the protection of their individual as well as collective rights.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p.244

"... the term 'citizen,' in the United States, is analogous to the term "SUBJECT" in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government. ... he who before was a "subject of the King" is now a citizen of the State."
- - - State v. Manuel, 20 N.C. 144 (1838)
Obviously, subject citizens of a government cannot be sovereigns without subjects, as mentioned in "Chisholm v. Georgia."

In the dim past, our ancestors knew better.
.................................................. ...............
ALIEN, n. An American sovereign in his probationary state.
- - - - “The Devil’s Dictionary” (1906), by Ambrose Bierce
(download available from gutenberg.org)
.................................................. ...............
His audience knew what an “American sovereign” was, to understand the joke.


RESTATEMENT
REPUBLICAN FORM - that form of government wherein the people directly exercise sovereignty, and are served -not ruled- by government (and its subject citizens). The sovereign people retain possession of all their endowed and inalienable rights, powers, and liberties, and no democratic majority can vote them away. The servant government exercises power to secure rights, and only by special delegation via consent, may it govern. Though not perfect, it is the best form, securing the maximum liberty and freedom to its sovereign people.
I hope that helps clarify things.

ADDENDUM:
If one consents to be governed, all bets are off - - -
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Old Yesterday, 06:16 PM
 
266 posts, read 246,415 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I understand your dilemma. Most Americans do not understand the difference, either.

In soundbite format:
  • REPUBLIC = form of government, whose administration is open to all citizens (i.e., indirect democracy) -OR- can mean the government regardless of its form. (Ex: People's Republic of China).
  • DEMOCRACY = form of government where the whole body of citizens indirectly exercise sovereignty via majority vote. Minority rights can be overridden by majority, unless expressly protected.
  • REPUBLICAN FORM = form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereigns, endowed with rights that servant government is instituted to secure. Governments instituted to secure rights can only govern those who consent.

What is the MAJOR difference?

Citizens are subjects, by definition, owing mandatory civic duties to their sovereign governments, whether parliamentary democracy, monarchy, oligarchy, or whatever.

Sovereigns are not citizens, nor subjects, nor owe duties to the government (and its subject citizens).

Most Americans are taught to believe they are "born citizens," pursuant to the 14th amendment. But that cannot be true and comply with existing law. Suffice to say, no infant can give consent to be governed, and thus cannot be born into servitude (a violation of the republican form, the Declaration of Independence, and the 13th amendment).

America is UNIQUE, in that it is the ONLY COUNTRY with a republican form (not to be confused with "republic"). Americans are sovereigns until they consent otherwise. That is why Americans do not bow nor kneel to foreign monarchs (their social equals), and why Americans can marry foreign royalty and not violate local laws forbidding "commoners." And why Americans cannot accept foreign titles of nobility and thus descend to subjects of the foreign sovereign. Americans are sovereigns without subjects, unlike any other peoples on Earth.


REPUBLICAN FORM IN DEPTH
“The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the Rights of mankind.”
- - - Thomas Jefferson
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

“I firmly believe that the benevolent Creator designed the republican Form of Government for Man.”
- - - Samuel Adams;
Statement of (14 April 1785), quoted in The Writings of Samuel Adams (1904) edited by Harry A. Cushing
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Samuel_Adams

"What I do say is that no man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle, the sheet-anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- - - Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Peoria, Illinois (1854)
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abraham_lincoln
As Lincoln reminds us, under the republican form, promised by the USCON, instituted by the Declaration of Independence, NO MAN (nor American government) is good enough to govern you without your consent. Without your consent, all that government is authorized to do is secure endowed (sacred) rights (prosecute trespass; adjudicate disputes; defend against enemies, foreign or domestic).

All endowed rights and liberties are from the Creator, not government, and thus cannot be subject to a majority vote, or any other infringement.
" Personal liberty, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or natural Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as sacred as the Right to private property...and is regarded as inalienable."
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum, Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987.

NATURAL RIGHTS - ... are the rights of life, liberty, privacy, and good reputation.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 1324
Americans are endowed with [sacred] natural rights and liberties (natural and personal) that are not subject to infringement by servant government, instituted to secure those rights.

- - -
“... at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects, and have none to govern but themselves. . .
“... In Europe, the sovereignty is generally ascribed to the Prince; here, it rests with the people; there, the sovereign actually administers the government; here, never in a single instance; our Governors are the agents of the people, and, at most, stand in the same relation to their sovereign in which regents in Europe stand to their sovereigns.”
- - - Justice John Jay, Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. 2 Dall. 419 419 (1793)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremec...CR_0002_0419_Z

In America, however, the case is widely different. Our government is founded upon compact. Sovereignty was, and is, in the people.
- - - Glass vs The Sloop Betsey, 3 Dall 6 (1794)
- - -
In the republican form of government, the people are sovereigns (unless they consent otherwise) served by (not ruled by) servant government. Their rights and liberties existed before constitutional government (which is why the republican form is NOT a constitutional republic, nor can any constitutional government "grant" sovereignty). The servant government is organized as an indirect democracy, but it is an agent for the sovereign people, not their governor. Private people (sovereigns) are not party to the compact that created the servant government, nor serve it.

DEFINITIONS

Here are THREE definitions that describe aspects associated with the REPUBLICAN FORM
...
COMMONWEALTH - ...It generally designates, when so employed, a republican form of government, - one in which the welfare and rights of the entire mass of people are the main consideration, rather than the privileges of a class or the will of the monarch...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 278

SUBJECT - One that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws.
...Men in free governments are subjects as well as citizens; as citizens they enjoy rights and franchises; as subjects they are bound to obey the laws. The term is little used, in this sense, in countries enjoying a republican form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1425

GOVERNMENT (Republican Form of Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people... directly...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695
...
Restating, in the references to a “republican form” we can see the following characteristics of it:
[] People directly exercise sovereignty (over themselves and their private property, absolutely owned)
[] People are not subjects of a sovereign (citizens are subjects, by definition)
[] The welfare and rights of the entire mass of people are the main consideration
RELATED TO SOVEREIGN PEOPLE (non-citizen Nationals)
"The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different states in this union, the free inhabitants of each of these states, ... shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several states ..."
[Article IV of the Articles of Confederation (1777)]
“Free inhabitants” = sovereigns
“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion. . .”
- - - United States Constitution, Article 4, Section 4.

“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the PEOPLE.”
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the PEOPLE.”
- - - Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution
The "United States" government is NOT a republican form, but it guarantees it to the sovereign people in the States united.
Note: PEOPLE (sovereigns) have rights and powers. Citizens (subjects) have privileges and immunities.

Citizens are NOT sovereigns
CITIZEN - ... Citizens are members of a political community who, in their associative capacity, have established or SUBMITTED themselves to the dominion of government for the promotion of the general welfare and the protection of their individual as well as collective rights.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p.244

"... the term 'citizen,' in the United States, is analogous to the term "SUBJECT" in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government. ... he who before was a "subject of the King" is now a citizen of the State."
- - - State v. Manuel, 20 N.C. 144 (1838)
Obviously, subject citizens of a government cannot be sovereigns without subjects, as mentioned in "Chisholm v. Georgia."

In the dim past, our ancestors knew better.
.................................................. ...............
ALIEN, n. An American sovereign in his probationary state.
- - - - “The Devil’s Dictionary” (1906), by Ambrose Bierce
(download available from gutenberg.org)
.................................................. ...............
His audience knew what an “American sovereign” was, to understand the joke.


RESTATEMENT
REPUBLICAN FORM - that form of government wherein the people directly exercise sovereignty, and are served -not ruled- by government (and its subject citizens). The sovereign people retain possession of all their endowed and inalienable rights, powers, and liberties, and no democratic majority can vote them away. The servant government exercises power to secure rights, and only by special delegation via consent, may it govern. Though not perfect, it is the best form, securing the maximum liberty and freedom to its sovereign people.
I hope that helps clarify things.

ADDENDUM:
If one consents to be governed, all bets are off - - -
Consent can be rescinded

Declaration of Independence
"...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..."
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Old Today, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
19,338 posts, read 19,773,775 times
Reputation: 16568
Both are being wrecked by insane people with lots of power and an insane ideology.
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Old Today, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
14,056 posts, read 5,546,066 times
Reputation: 8524
Yes, the political union of our states is stronger than that of the union between countries that is the EU. The latter will collapse first.
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