Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's almost how it works in America, we print our own money and owe most of it to us.
You have to be very careful.
When you say we owe most of our debt to ourselves, what you mean by that is...
-Social Security's trust-fund is invested in US debt.
-The Military's Pension is invested in US debt.
-The Civil Service Pension is invested in US debt.
-About a dozen other smaller federal government pensions are invested in US debt.
-Countless State and local government pensions and benefit packages have investments in US debt.
-Union pensions have large investments in US debt.
-Many 401K, brokerages, and IRAs have investments in US debt.
-Teacher pensions have investments in US debt.
-College Endowment funds have investments in US debt.
-State and City rainy day funds are often invested in US debt.
-Private US companies putting employee benefit money in US debt for short term safe keeping.
---Some people see what you wrote and think that this means we can magically erase this debt away without taxes, reduced spending, or inflation. Then they get the foolish idea that it is like borrowing $1 from yourself or your spouse - it seems like debt only on paper as an illusion. However, this is not true.
This is real debt owed to real people - people who are planning on it being there - many of these people will literally need the money to live above the poverty line.
When you say we owe most of our debt to ourselves, what you mean by that is...
-Social Security's trust-fund is invested in US debt.
-The Military's Pension is invested in US debt.
-The Civil Service Pension is invested in US debt.
-About a dozen other smaller federal government pensions are invested in US debt.
-Countless State and local government pensions and benefit packages have investments in US debt.
-Union pensions have large investments in US debt.
-Many 401K, brokerages, and IRAs have investments in US debt.
-Teacher pensions have investments in US debt.
-College Endowment funds have investments in US debt.
-State and City rainy day funds are often invested in US debt.
-Private US companies putting employee benefit money in US debt for short term safe keeping.
---Some people see what you wrote and think that this means we can magically erase this debt away without taxes, reduced spending, or inflation. Then they get the foolish idea that it is like borrowing $1 from yourself or your spouse - it seems like debt only on paper as an illusion. However, this is not true.
This is real debt owed to real people - people who are planning on it being there - many of these people will literally need the money to live above the poverty line.
And the crash of 2008 proved how very real and useful that paper is. No interest payment, rollover or redemption missed. No SS reduction or any SS payment missed as economies crashed. And the world moved even further into holding more US debt as it was and remains the safest and most secure debt instrument.
The whole reason you have a fiat-currency...is to be able to spend beyond your wildest dreams.
The national-debt will just keep going up and up and up......it will NEVER go down.
There are pros and cons to everything. It's pretty naive to think to think there weren't major drawbacks before adopting a fiat-currency. There were quite a bit of bank failures in the late 19th century.
By definition, lawful money is precious metal coin (gold - silver was demonetized in the Coinage Act of 1873).
Real money refers to lawful money.
Money includes real money (coin) and certificates (receipts for real money).
Notes are IOUs, denominated in real money, but being debt, are neither money nor real money.
Furthermore, Congress repudiated redeeming their IOUs ("dollar bills") in House Joint Resolution 192, June 1933. Ergo, they are WORTHLESS (no par value).
". . .Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves . . . "
In addition, to facilitate this strange course of events, the government declared a STATE OF EMERGENCY.
. . . .
Senate Report 93-549 https://archive.org/stream/senate-re...3-549_djvu.txt
War and Emergency Powers Acts
"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all of their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years (as of the report 1933-1973), freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of national emergency."
FREEDOMS ... GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION ... HAVE BEEN ABRIDGED BY LAWS ... UNDER EMERGENCY RULE ...
. . . .
What else did those mischievous public servants do, in 1933?
* FDR ordered the confiscation of all hoarded gold (aka "lawful money"), giving worthless paper in exchange (theft by government)
* Then Congress criminalized the possession of lawful money (gold) by "free" Americans
* Then enact FICA / Socialist InSecurity to entrap Americans into a self-reinforcing scam of bribery and theft. (Government "takes" from one to "give" to another - minus a cut - violating the basic premise of securing property ownership)
* And all this was legal, by CONsent of the GOVERNED (you maroons).
__"The private ownership of gold is a privilege, not a right. Congress revoked the privilege of private ownership in 1933 and restored it in 1974. Congress could easily revoke the privilege again. In fact, at no time during this century has the U.S. government recognized the right of private gold ownership. The Trading With The Enemy Act, which President Roosevelt invoked in 1933 to restrict private gold transactions, remains law. The government could reactivate the machinery, which The Trading With The Enemy Act established, to implement gold confiscation."
- - - Boston College International and Comparative Law Review 297, 320 (1982)
Congress and FDR declared that private ownership of gold was a privilege, not a right.
Really?
__“The ultimate ownership of all property is in the State; individual so-called “ownership” is only by virtue of government, i.e. law, amounting to mere user; and user must be in accordance with law and subordinate to the necessities of the State.” — Senate Document No. 43, 73D Congress, 1st Session, entitled: “Contracts Payable in Gold”, by George Cyrus Thorpe, submitted to the senate: April 17, 1933
......
Is that clear enough?
The STATE abolished private property (absolute ownership by individuals).
From the Communist manifesto: "In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
Abolition occurred in 1933.
But before 1933, private property ownership was a SACRED RIGHT.
" Personal liberty, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or natural Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as SACRED AS THE RIGHT TO PRIVATE PROPERTY...and is regarded as inalienable."
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum , Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987.
Few Americans can remember what private property was, since it has been 83 years.
"PRIVATE PROPERTY - As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as belongs absolutely to an individual, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
- - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217.
"OWNERSHIP - ... Ownership of property is either absolute or qualified. The ownership of property is absolute when a single person has the absolute dominion over it... The ownership is qualified when it is shared with one or more persons, when the time of enjoyment is deferred or limited, or when the use is restricted. "
- - -Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p. 1106
“... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”
- - - FIFTH AMENDMENT
The confiscation of gold, and compensation in worthless IOUs, was a prima facie declaration of totalitarian collectivism, and the abolition of private property by FDR and Congress, in 1933.
Congratulations, you've lived under a (benevolent) two party communist dictatorship using emergency rules for 83 years... and still haven't a clue.
In the words of Bugs Bunny, "What a buncha maroons..."
=\=\=\=\=
Last edited by jetgraphics; 02-10-2016 at 09:40 PM..
[Vulgar explosive exclamations omitted]
When will this blatant non fact ever die?
Federal Reserve Notes (dollar bills) are NOT FIAT.
....
From wikipedia,
“The term fiat money has been defined variously as: any money declared by a government to be legal tender. State-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard. Money without intrinsic value.”
....
From those words, it says MONEY declared to be LEGAL TENDER.
Agreed?
Take out one of those green pieces of paper and read the top of it : "Federal Reserve NOTE".
MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace NOTES, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005
MONEY does not embrace NOTES. A Federal Reserve Note is therefore NOT FIAT.
It IS legal tender on obligated parties to said note (under the "law of notes" - not money).
What’s the difference?
IF the “dollar bill” was fiat, then if the U.S. government went totally bust, so would the “dollar bill.” All that one loses is the “face value” of worthless paper.
Why is it legal tender for YOU?
...
● CONTRIBUTION - ... The share of a loss payable by an insurer when contracts with two or more insurers cover the same loss... The sharing of loss or payment among several...
--- Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed., p. 328
...
Every enumerated "contributor" under FICA (Federal Insurance CONTRIBUTIONS Act) is equally liable for the public debt, making "dollar bills" into legal tender. Hence you cannot object to their tender.
And, if the U.S. government defaults, every enumerated American enrolled in FICA is an obligated party on those “dollar bills.”
WHOA.
YOU and YOURS are pledged as collateral - at FACE VALUE - in dollars.
You. Lose. Everything.
You are pledged as collateral.
Your property is pledged as collateral.
YOUR CHILDREN are pledged as collateral.
How else can you explain why Americans are "human resources" under the management of the Federal government?
Did you think that Socialist InSecurity was INSURANCE for YOU?
In two important cases, Helvering v. Davis and Flemming v. Nestor, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Social Security taxes are simply taxes and convey no property or contractual rights to Social Security benefits. They are at the sole discretion of Congress.
To misquote Soylent Green : "Dollars bills is people!"
And the crash of 2008 proved how very real and useful that paper is. No interest payment, rollover or redemption missed. No SS reduction or any SS payment missed as economies crashed. And the world moved even further into holding more US debt as it was and remains the safest and most secure debt instrument.
We are not at the point of not being able to pay interest by issuing new debt to consumers. It helps that there are laws requiring social security, the military pension, state pensions, etc...to buy that debt...However, we could get there. There is worry that Japan is soon approaching this point.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
