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In my opinion and that of many world leaders, ONLY a two-state solution is viable, and serious concessions will be necessary for both sides (not change of feelings or rhetoric). Once there is such a solution brokered, a "healing" process can begin.
What I think is VERY important to understand here is that if such a solution can be agreed upon, regardless what feelings or rhetoric to the contrary, over time the younger ones -- on both sides -- forget these "hang ups" that their predecessors clung to without quarter for so long. This is the "healing" process that only time will bring after a peace is brokered, even if those who broker that peace today hate one another and are not about to suggest otherwise...
If such a peace is not brokered, however, the young ones grow up with the same loss of family and friends that also turns them into mortal enemies, or they are killed or mutilated themselves. No real forgetting or healing can ever be expected on either side if the fighting continues, as these decades of senseless violence have well proven.
Your viewing the conflict through a Western lens. You can't think like an American with American ideals, American values and Western thought. You have to view the ideology and culture from the perspective of the Palestinians. Once you understand, you will realize all you said is a pipedream.
The history books have already covered this subject.
A pointless statement.
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The Jewish contribution to the British war efforts and Churchill's trust in Jewish development to advance its interests lead to the British policy of creating a Jewish state.
Right. That's the reason. We''ll ignore the 100 year old Zionist movement to come before that. The WWII hardened Brits gave up Israel suspiciously easily to Jewish terrorists, don't you think?
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The rise of Anti-Semitism and Hitler's reign caused an influx of Jews to make Aliyah to the region. If the Spring of Nations gave birth to ethnic states in Europe, why can't Jews return to their ancestral homeland Theodore Hertzl wrote.
Because Arabs were already living there; and the Bible is a series of allegorical myths written by Jewish people that lays claim to Israel. In fact, assuming that it is true at all, that same Bible clearly puts forth that the land was the home of many tribes before them. Israel committed genocide to gain the land.
After WWII, there was no reason for Jews to go to the region en mass. If there was, all Jews would be there now.
Today, organized Jewish political power does not support ethnic states in Europe.
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A "Conversion encouraging integration program" did occur, it was called the British Mandate. A mandate that allowed Arab Muslims to be equal citizens and protected under the Jewish State.
Where are the organized conversion programs for Arabs today? The truth is that conversion is made purposefully difficult so that few will accomplish it, it is actively discouraged, and it is often revoked.
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But while Israel did some unfavorable things, majority of the Arabs fled on their own accords,thanks to Arab Leaderships call to fight Israel. The outcome would of been different if they accepted one of the state proposals.
A new nation should not have invited itself to move in to a small parcel of land to begin with. There were already people there, living in civilization, and the result has been their displacement and the current Palestinian situation. Also, you aren't telling the truth. What happened during the Nakba is well documented.
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25% of Israel today is Arab Muslim, proof that the "ethnic cleansing" and the theories of the "Nakba" are false.
That doesn't prove that anything is false. Their villages were razed.
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But it's to late for the "right of return". Palestinian immigration to Israel would turn into another power struggle like Lebanon.
That's convenient. So you're stating that there would be an inter-ethnic political struggle if Arabs were to have the Right of Return? I wonder why diaspora Jewish Power doesn't care about that when they encourage immigration into the nations? Where are the Jewish groups crying about power struggles in the USA or Europe? All I hear about is the celebration that is coming when Europeans are to be minorities in their own lands.
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Any proof of this or are you just talking out your @ss?
Proof of what?
That atheist racial Jews are considered full Jews by Israel and the tribe in general? That's common knowledge. We can consult any number of Jewish sources, readily searchable, that confirm this. However, I'm not going to jump through your silly hoops on command for common accepted knowledge that I know that you know. Additionally, Jewish groups speak out politically for Jews wherever they reside, no matter what they actually believe in. No racial Jews would ever be kept in the condition that the Palestinians are by Israel.
The eschatology is readily available as well, and is common knowledge. There can be no Christians in Israel at the time of the Messiah. Do you want proof that Christians believe that Christ was crucified as well? It's an equivalent demand.
Save your hoops to "prove" common knowledge for someone who cares.
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More verbal diarrhea.
Your historical knowledge of the Middle East is very poor!
Part of the reason why Israel initiated the 1982 Lebanon War was to rescue persecuted Christians. If you read the memoires of Menachem Begin, he felt compelled to intervene and hopefully fulfill a minority coalition.
Your ability to respond equivalently in a debate is very poor!
Mentioning an event in 1982 has nothing to do with my statement about Christians currently being cleansed from the Middle East by ISIS. In actuality, you are avoiding commenting on the current situation by bringing up another. I reject your invalid debate tactic.
No core reason that Israel has ever initiated war with anyone in the ME has had anything to do with Christians.
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Anyway, prove that Benjamin Netanyahu forced Europe to take Syrian refugees. Ironically, the typical IhateIsrael crew like yourself would cry fowl of Israeli intervention if Israel were to get involved in Syria.
There it is. I'm surprised that you saved it for this far down the page. Your weak arguments necessitate your cry of victim status, in that my perspectives are because I'm a "hater" and couldn't possibly have anything to do with anything else mentioned. It's a pathetic, worn tactic and I and most others could now care less about it. Booh, hoo. Cry, cry, cry... who cares.
We all know that Israel is very involved in Syria, one way or another. Taking refugees from Syria, with whom they share a border, has nothing to do with being "involved" there.
Last, there you go again with your "proof" game. I feel like I'm debating someone who is having a lot of trouble making valid points. I'm not your personal google research assistant, and furthermore I said nothing about Netanyahu. I said "Jewish Power in the diaspora".
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Your accusing the said poster of Logic and Morality and manipulation yet you provided nothing but a repeated diatribe against the Jews and Israel. Even worse, you suggested that the whole country absolves and moves because "science is outside of Israel." Logical and Moral alright.
So, making rhetorical points, in general, that are not in Israel's favor is anti-logic and anti-morality? Gotcha. It's more of that uneven mindset. Nothing that goes against your interests is anything but "hate", no matter how true.
What does "absolves and moves" mean?
There is nothing controversial about reiterating the rabbinic desire for most or even all Jews to make aliyah.
Avoiding commenting on my assertion does not "absolve" anyone from it. There is a definite immoral inconsistency between organized Jewish political groups outside of Israel, who for instance apply political pressure on Europe to accept millions of Arabs, and Jewish political aims for Israel itself.
Last, I'll reiterate that I would support Israel were they to become consistent in their politics when operating in the nations and in their politics for Israel. If you have a problem with that demand, and label it "hate", then that is your immorality and your problem.
All of those liberal Jewish organizations are the enemy of Israel also. They are not Zionists. I think you should educate yourself more about this matter.
In general, I appreciate and respect your reasonable responses and will gladly offer you the same courtesy in tone and content.
Specifically to the above quoted comment, I wish it were true. I sincerely do, as it would make the world much less complicated.
The problem is that I am referring to organizations such as the World Jewish Congress and the Central Committee for Jews in Germany. I'm referring to the Likud party leaders actively conspiring with diaspora Jewish leaders to ship refugees to their lands.
Lol your smart, I will give you that. I called BS on the claims of Israeli apartheid and settlements, get it now? Its not true, its a fabrication and you drank the cool aid. To combat my position, I asked you to prove this and all you came up with is President Obama's Political Stance. In exchange, I gave you an indepth history and sociological perspective of the conflict. You quickly dismissed it as 'bias' because you refuse to accept new information.
Your opinion is baseless because you failed to form a decent argument.
Funny that I have been feeling very much the same way about your comments, but I thought better than to simply say so in the way you are doing. These sweeping bold statements of yours reflect your perspective in general, stubborn and beyond reason.
How? It's your responsibility to academically research the topic before you speak on it.
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Right. That's the reason. We''ll ignore the 100 year old Zionist movement to come before that. The WWII hardened Brits gave up Israel suspiciously easily to Jewish terrorists, don't you think?
Your historical knowledge is extremely poor.
100 years prior to this time would put the time frame in the mid 1800's, the Zionist movement began around 1880-1890.
The Jewish contribution to the fall of the Ottoman Empire as well as Jewish contributions to the WWI-WWII efforts influenced the British to implant a Jewish state in the region.
[quote]Because Arabs were already living there; and the Bible is a series of allegorical myths written by Jewish people that lays claim to Israel. In fact, assuming that it is true at all, that same Bible clearly puts forth that the land was the home of many tribes before them. Israel committed genocide to gain the land.[/QUOTE]
Prove your claim or pound sand. Anyhow, The Arab cry about Israel is in the Koran, do you dismiss their view equally?
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After WWII, there was no reason for Jews to go to the region en mass. If there was, all Jews would be there now.
Today, organized Jewish political power does not support ethnic states in Europe.
Troll.
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Where are the organized conversion programs for Arabs today? The truth is that conversion is made purposefully difficult so that few will accomplish it, it is actively discouraged, and it is often revoked.
A new nation should not have invited itself to move in to a small parcel of land to begin with. There were already people there, living in civilization, and the result has been their displacement and the current Palestinian situation. Also, you aren't telling the truth. What happened during the Nakba is well documented.
Historians say no and that the burden of responsibility was placed on Arab leadership's calculated decisions to fight the Jews.
But anyway, Prove your point or Pound Sand.
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That doesn't prove that anything is false. Their villages were razed.
A state sponsored "ethnic cleansing" cannot of occurred if Israel has retained 25% of the said ethnic cleansed population as citizens. Hitler who sponsored ethnic cleansing against the Jewish people would not allow some Jews as equal citizens but kill the rest.
But anyway, Prove your point or Pound Sand.
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That's convenient. So you're stating that there would be an inter-ethnic political struggle if Arabs were to have the Right of Return? I wonder why diaspora Jewish Power doesn't care about that when they encourage immigration into the nations? Where are the Jewish groups crying about power struggles in the USA or Europe? All I hear about is the celebration that is coming when Europeans are to be minorities in their own lands.
Yup. Look at Lebanon.
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Proof of what?
That atheist racial Jews are considered full Jews by Israel and the tribe in general? That's common knowledge. We can consult any number of Jewish sources, readily searchable, that confirm this. However, I'm not going to jump through your silly hoops on command for common accepted knowledge that I know that you know. Additionally, Jewish groups speak out politically for Jews wherever they reside, no matter what they actually believe in. No racial Jews would ever be kept in the condition that the Palestinians are by Israel.
The eschatology is readily available as well, and is common knowledge. There can be no Christians in Israel at the time of the Messiah. Do you want proof that Christians believe that Christ was crucified as well? It's an equivalent demand.
We are not talking about historic Israel during the Christ era, we are talking about modern day. Anyhow, your last few sentences have no point.
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Save your hoops to "prove" common knowledge for someone who cares.
Your ability to respond equivalently in a debate is very poor!
Right because your rejection of Jewish self-determination in the Middle East is based off an ill-conceived argument around the period of Jesus Christ.
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Mentioning an event in 1982 has nothing to do with my statement about Christians currently being cleansed from the Middle East by ISIS. In actuality, you are avoiding commenting on the current situation by bringing up another. I reject your invalid debate tactic.
No core reason that Israel has ever initiated war with anyone in the ME has had anything to do with Christians.
What does Israel have to do with anything? You have put the blame on Israel but not ISIS.
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There it is. I'm surprised that you saved it for this far down the page. Your weak arguments necessitate your cry of victim status, in that my perspectives are because I'm a "hater" and couldn't possibly have anything to do with anything else mentioned. It's a pathetic, worn tactic and I and most others could now care less about it. Booh, hoo. Cry, cry, cry... who cares.
We all know that Israel is very involved in Syria, one way or another. Taking refugees from Syria, with whom they share a border, has nothing to do with being "involved" there.
Last, there you go again with your "proof" game. I feel like I'm debating someone who is having a lot of trouble making valid points. I'm not your personal google research assistant, and furthermore I said nothing about Netanyahu. I said "Jewish Power in the diaspora".
So, making rhetorical points, in general, that are not in Israel's favor is anti-logic and anti-morality? Gotcha. It's more of that uneven mindset. Nothing that goes against your interests is anything but "hate", no matter how true.
What does "absolves and moves" mean?
There is nothing controversial about reiterating the rabbinic desire for most or even all Jews to make aliyah.
Avoiding commenting on my assertion does not "absolve" anyone from it. There is a definite immoral inconsistency between organized Jewish political groups outside of Israel, who for instance apply political pressure on Europe to accept millions of Arabs, and Jewish political aims for Israel itself.
Last, I'll reiterate that I would support Israel were they to become consistent in their politics when operating in the nations and in their politics for Israel. If you have a problem with that demand, and label it "hate", then that is your immorality and your problem.
You are simply a troll who seeks the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people. Too bad the mods accept such hated speech on the forums.
Your viewing the conflict through a Western lens. You can't think like an American with American ideals, American values and Western thought. You have to view the ideology and culture from the perspective of the Palestinians. Once you understand, you will realize all you said is a pipedream.
Not sure which lens you have, but peace is not an "American" ideal. Working toward something better than ongoing violence is part of world history long before America was even a country, even in the Middle East. Study history, and also clear is that even in America brothers can come to killing brothers as we did as recently during our own civil war, but ultimately people know that an "eye for an eye" only makes everyone blind over time. Let's not also think we Americans are somehow special in terms of recognizing these fundamentals of the human condition and/or evolution.
Of course, this fatalist perspective is nothing new either. Everything to suggest that no peace is possible has been the Israeli mantra for too long now, but the rest of the world is getting awfully weary of the same sort of stubborn perspective beyond reason. There is also that other small consideration regarding the fact that there is no other better alternative other than a two-state solution, whether it be an entirely peaceful one or not.
Though I have had my disagreements with Godofthunder as well, at least in that exchange there is evidence of what I view a more reasoned and balanced perspective. This too is an essential ingredient to any sort of progress toward cooperation between adversaries.
This defeatist view that any sort of arrangement or peace is just a "pipe dream" is in no way workable. Instead it is a poor excuse for Israel to maintain that status quo at the expense of everyone else, fooling no one.
Funny that I have been feeling very much the same way about your comments, but I thought better than to simply say so in the way you are doing. These sweeping bold statements of yours reflect your perspective in general, stubborn and beyond reason.
PS: You are offering no "new" information.
Ill have to admit, Golgi takes the icing on the cake on the rejection of Jewish self-determination in the Middle East.
I do not care what you think of me, you stated opinions that you cannot back up with adequate sources. Every source you presented I presented an counter argument.
This goes for everybody. If one does not understand the topic they discuss, they should learn and research before bashing a particular party.
Not sure which lens you have, but peace is not an "American" ideal. Working toward something better than ongoing violence is part of history before America was even a country or the West much other than open space.
Of course, this perspective is nothing new either. Everything to suggest that no peace is possible has been the Israeli mantra for too long now, but the rest of the world is getting awfully weary of the same sort of stubborn perspective beyond reason. There is also that other small consideration regarding the fact that there is no other better alternative other than a two-state solution, whether it be an entirely peaceful one or not.
Though I have had my disagreements with Godofthunder as well, at least in that exchange there is evidence of what I view a more reasoned and balanced perspective. This too is an essential ingredient to any sort of progress toward cooperation between adversaries.
This defeatist view that any sort of arrangement or peace is just a "pipe dream" is in no way workable. Instead it is a poor excuse for Israel to maintain that status quo at the expense of everyone else, fooling no one.
Who's expense is this?
Anyhow, why did the Palestinians reject Barak's and Olmert peace offerings?
I have noticed a few people in these threads that are very quick and loose to accuse others of being "trolls" as they get more frustrated with the points of disagreement. I always find that tactic awfully immature.
After all, who doesn't know that "application of the term troll is subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. Like any pejorative term, it can be used as an ad hominem attack, suggesting a negative motivation."
Refute argument with argument, not lazy misplaced accusations that also fool no one!
Anyhow, why did the Palestinians reject Barak's and Olmert peace offerings?
Another rather obvious answer to your question; the expense is that of the next person killed or maimed or that looses a family member, then the rest of the world that suffers with the friction and possible expanded violence that is always a threat. As the rate of violence is going right now (and you can check me on these numbers), the expense is a good deal highest for the Palestinians and has been for quite some time.
As for the second question, I suspect you may also feel this is deflection, but to point to what is relevant vs not so relevant is not a deflection. It is the effort to draw focus where it needs to be drawn rather than veer toward distraction.
Accordingly, though of course history matters, there is far too much history of wrong-doing by both sides to waste any more time picking away at those sores. What happened back in 2001 is no longer front-and-center when it comes to what still needs to be done today, plain and simple!
This is why I have been trying to present CURRENT news developments and present-day leader's comments rather than rehash the same old crap we should all be sick of hearing about by now...
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Give it a rest...
